There seems little point to continuing this discussion but I hope I'll be forgiven for adding a few (interesting, I hope) comments.

Cogito wrote:Vienna wants to sell hotdogs, not toppings.

No, they want to sell both. Here's an interesting passage that suggests a reason why Vienna Beef so aggressively pushes their version of the Chicago hot dog.

In the Sun-Times of Sept 21, 2003, Mike Houlihan wrote:Some joints will throw a salad on top of the wiener and tell you that's a true Chicago dog. Hot dog connoisseurs say that started when Vienna sausage purchased a pickle company. They put their marketing gurus to work condemning the non-pickle dog as "not Chicago." Pete scoffs at this slander. "I say, 'No, buddy, this is a real hot dog.' I got 50 years of experience eatin' em. Plain bun, hot dog, the mustard, the green relish, the onions with the sport peppers, fresh-cut fries. That's the real hot dog."

Pete is Peter Schivarelli, former owner of Demon Dogs under the Fullerton El stop, where a minimally dressed hot dog was served. Vienna Beef purchased Chicago Pickle Company (now called Chipico) in the 1980s.

stevez wrote:Vienna used to have an artist on staff that hand painted all of those old signs. No two are exactly alike, although all used only the traditional mustard relish and onions as the ingredients.

There were probably others before him but in the 1970s the Vienna Sausage artist was Gus Korn. That was before the company was renamed Vienna Beef. Mr Korn was a longtime brisket briner at the company before his artistic talents were recognized. You are correct that he garnished his paintings with only mustard, relish and onions but in later years he "cut corners" by omitting the onions because they took too long to paint (I'm not making this up).

stevez wrote:If you look at one closely, the artist signed all of them with his initials somewhere within the relish.

This has been one of my favorite pieces of hot dog trivia ever since you told me this story a couple years ago. I haven't yet come across one of the signed hot dogs but I remain ever hopeful. Has anyone seen a Gus Korn original?

MBK wrote:then what constitutes a chicago style dog?

I posted this in another thread today, but i found Mike Royko's take on this topic to be amusing. http://www.chicagohamburger.com/html/royko7.htm

Cathy2 wrote:Personally I do like the pickle spears that I put aside and eat separately.

I thought that was what you were supposed to do with the pickle spears (eat them separately, that is).

Since this size of this tangent has now far surpassed the size of the original thread, anybody else think this should be broken off?

(Broken off into its own thread, I mean, not an end to the discussion)

Dmnkly wrote:Since this size of this tangent has now far surpassed the size of the original thread, anybody else think this should be broken off?

(Broken off into its own thread, I mean, not an end to the discussion)

Yes, poor Michael's Beef and Palermo's Bakery . . . now everyone will think they're cutting corners. . .

aschie30 wrote:

Cathy2 wrote:Personally I do like the pickle spears that I put aside and eat separately.

I thought that was what you were supposed to do with the pickle spears (eat them separately, that is).

i've always done this too

iblock9 wrote:I posted this in another thread today, but i found Mike Royko's take on this topic to be amusing. http://www.chicagohamburger.com/html/royko7.htm

interesting read... she's out of office now but the fact that they went to politicians for hot dog recipies still lingers...

Dmnkly wrote:I stand corrected. Apparently this is a pissing contest

lol

Okay, folks, move over... It's my turn...



DOC hot dogs... ...

I'm NOT from Chicago but I've been here a long time...

Tomatoes... æææk...

As Rene G notes, many of the old time places, including Polk & Western, wouldn't know a fresh tomato if it came up and bit 'em on the...

Just had a P&W dog, moments ago... a work of art...
... and no frickin' tomatoes...


Antonius (Ausländer)

i just had an Al's double dog moments ago...

...another work of art.

Great passion for food . . . the expression of the broad array of viewpoints . . . there's no better testament for this website.

People go to other websites to get into flame wars about abortion, gun control, or politics. They come here when they are ready to kill someone over their hotdog toppings.

Santander wrote:Opinion, casing, and offal.

[Edit: changed it for you, ksbeck]

I lived in the Chicagoland area for 35 years and have eaten (partially due to working construction for 8 years) and many hot dog stands and fast food joints. One of my favorites is Gene and Judes but I don't consider it a "Chicago style hot dog" - I consider it the type of dog you get in Chicago. I like the simplicity of a dog with onions (not grilled), relish, mustard and sport peppers. The believe that the classic "Chicago style" has mustard, onions, neon green relish, pickle spear, tomato, sport peppers, and celery salt. Vienna Beef would like you to think that it also means that the dog must be a beef based hot dog. I think that the things that make this (and maybe contribute to the marketing aspect) a Chicago dog versus anywhere else in the country is: beef hot dog, sport peppers, neon green relish, poppy seed bun, mustard "only", and celery salt. I would guess that along with these things mentioned, the tomato and pickle came later.

On a side note: every spring I crave the Wrigley Field version of a "Chicago Style" hotdog: Kosher beef dog, poppy seed bun - with choice of grilled onions, relish, mustard, sport peppers (used to be pepper rings), and celery salt. If this is what they're serving at Wrigley, of course there's going to be some confusion...

Just for the record, I'd like to add that for a good while, there existed a strong counter-school to the Vienna based Chicago dog. What I call the "tastee" school centered on the now defunct Tast-e Hast-e. In fact, beyond (Famous) Bowser Dog across from Sabatino's, I know of no other extant tastee dog.

And what was the tastee school of Chicago hot dogs? The tastee dog differed firstly by the base and then secondly by the toppings. The meat in the tastee sausage came from Leon's Sausage Co., a dog both squishier yet spicier than the Vienna hot dog. The soft base supported a full garnish--a true salad on a bun; the usual topping AND lettuce, green pepper, cucumber, always with a strong dose of celery salt.

Because the Leon's sausage textually seems like a pork wiener, even an Oscar Meyer "kiddie" dog, and the fact that growing up we almost always ate Vienna dogs from Wolfy's or Booby's and rarely if ever from the equally nearby Tasty Dog (the Niles version) or Tasy Hut, I always associated this school of hot dog as the "gentile" school. In fact, eating a Leon's dog almost seemed like eating a communion wafer to me (!).

Today, I appreciate an occasional Leon's dog (although I skip the lettuce). Still, as I note, it's hard to impossible to find. I should also note that both Byron's and Tasty Dog in Oak Park serve Vienna dogs with the tastee toppings. I bet, based on the name, that the place in Oak Park once served Leon dogs.

My earliest recollection of Chicago hot dogs include the following.

A place on Clark St. between Greenleaf and Lunt called Mickey's. It's where I learned to eat Chicago style hot dogs with all the toppings including the novel at the time sport peppers. A natural casing dog with red food coloring. No tomatos, no lettuce, cucumbers or celery salt. It was little place with about 12 stools. It was the first place I was allowed to go by myself to eat. Probably 4th or 5th grade. The same sort of dog was served at a place on Ridge, between Estes and Touhy call Little Joe's Dog House, which was a "notorious" hang out to grammer school age kids like myself at the time.

There was also Paul's Umbrella at Touhy and California, which my Dad liked, but I have no strong memory of.

Finally, there were the beach concession hot dogs which were good because of the mustard and unusual, if for no other reason, for the grit from the sand.

I think the whole hot dog condiment issue breaks down along ethnic lines. The Jewish stands I grew up with in the 60's and early 70's, including Herm's (original and Palace), Fluky's, Wolfy's Moishe Pipics, Irv's and later Poochies, Mustards, Michaels and the original Larry's Hot Dog Island all served the fully dressed dog with poppyseed bun/mustard/neon relish/ sport peppers/raw onion/pickle and yes,tomato. Fries extra (mostly).
This was then and still remains "The" Chicago hot dog to me . It was usually possible to get a decent (or sometimes outstanding Polish at these stands as well.

The minimalist dog... plain bun /no tomato /no pickle and usually with fries included , typified by Polk and Western,Gene and Judes,Jimmy's and Demon dogs was something I associated with Italian neighborhoods (Lerner's was an exception) and was to me an entirely different species. Still a Chicago dog, but not at all what I grew up with. No chance of scoringa decent Polish at any of these places, which decreased their appeal considerably to me, as a dog and a polish (or in the case of Wolfy's a Hungarian) was often my standard order.

"Garden on a bun " dogs a la Byrons/ plush pup were sort of anomalies, mostly in out of the way areas (at least to me) and not really aligned with either school. These often used a non-Vienna dog and were very much not "true" Chicago dogs in any meanigful way. I still like one every so often.

To further Kuhdo's theory, I thought I read something in the Trib years ago about Maxwell St. and how Jewish sausage purveyors would throw raw veggies on the hot dog as a way for the working man to eat a well-rounded meal (veggies and meat) in the middle of the workday, for cheap, and without too much fuss.

Does anyone else recall this article?

Can we at least agree on what a Chicago hot dog is not? That is, no ketchup.

Anyhow, from a pop cultural and marketing perspective, there is a definitive "Chicago-style" hot dog. We all know what the ingredients are. If you advertise a "Chicago-style" hot dog, I think there are a reasonable set of expectations, which include everything from the poppy seed bun to the dash of celery salt. Otherwise, why advertise "Chicago style" in Chicago? It seems rather redundant.

In my youth, hot dogs were served with mustard, raw onions, relish (not the neon green stuff, though), sport peppers, and a pickle spear (which I ate together with the hot dog) on a plain bun. Oh yeah, and a dash of celery salt, if requested (personally, I think it's that little detail that makes me miss hot dogs from Chicago most when I'm away, although most places probably don't even use it). I would only discover tomatoes, neon green relish, and poppy seed buns in my teen years.

aschie30 wrote:To further Kuhdo's theory, I thought I read something in the Trib years ago about Maxwell St. and how Jewish sausage purveyors would throw raw veggies on the hot dog as a way for the working man to eat a well-rounded meal (veggies and meat) in the middle of the workday, for cheap, and without too much fuss.

Does anyone else recall this article?

Not that article specifically, but that is the lore I recall regarding the genesis of the salad-on-a-bun style of Chicago hot dogs, that it was some sort of Depression-era way of getting a cheap, rounded meal. Whether there is any basis in fact, I don't know, but that's the story I know.

Binko wrote:

aschie30 wrote:To further Kuhdo's theory, I thought I read something in the Trib years ago about Maxwell St. and how Jewish sausage purveyors would throw raw veggies on the hot dog as a way for the working man to eat a well-rounded meal (veggies and meat) in the middle of the workday, for cheap, and without too much fuss.

Does anyone else recall this article?

Not that article specifically, but that is the lore I recall regarding the genesis of the salad-on-a-bun style of Chicago hot dogs, that it was some sort of Depression-era way of getting a cheap, rounded meal. Whether there is any basis in fact, I don't know, but that's the story I know.

See this write-up from VI's blog, with this quote from an article by LAZ (man, this is getting kind of incestuous):

LAZ wrote:The “banquet on a bun” had its origins in the Great Depression, when greengrocer Abe Drexler decided his 18-year-old son, local sports hero Jake “Fluky” Drexler, needed an occupation. That was in 1929, when jobs were hard to find, so Drexler converted the family's Maxwell Street vegetable cart into a hot-dog stand, and began offering the “Depression Sandwich,” which sold for a nickel. “He built it like a vegetable cart would do it,” says Fluky’s son, Jack. (Also called Fluky, he likes to say he was “born in a bun” and is today proprietor of three North Side and suburban stands.) “It was an instant success.” The only change since 1929 has been the relish, which turned its distinctive “nuclear green” color in the 1970s.

Vital Information wrote:The meat in the tastee sausage came from Leon's Sausage Co., a dog both squishier yet spicier than the Vienna hot dog.

I should also note that both Byron's and Tasty Dog in Oak Park serve Vienna dogs with the tastee toppings. I bet, based on the name, that the place in Oak Park once served Leon dogs.

I have had Leon's HDs. I don't mind them. They are not my favorite, but they are a decent product. My favorite dog is a Red Hot Chicago with a natural casing. I prefer their flavor over Vienna's. The pits is when you run across one of those renegade stands that really are cutting corners by using Oscar Mayer or BallPark HDs.

BTW, I am familiar with 2 Tasty Dogs in Berwyn, but where is the one in Oak Park?

Cogito wrote:BTW, I am familiar with 2 Tasty Dogs in Berwyn, but where is the one in Oak Park?

On lake street, one block east of Oak Park Avenue. Is that Scoville? I can't remember.

I haven't been to the Oak Park location in several years, but I'm recalling it's on Lake St., near the high school (maybe across from the school).

gleam wrote:

Cogito wrote:BTW, I am familiar with 2 Tasty Dogs in Berwyn, but where is the one in Oak Park?

On lake street, one block east of Oak Park Avenue. Is that Scoville? I can't remember.

Tasty Dog in Oak Park is at Lake and Euclid.

Euclid, that's it! Thanks!

We used to get hot dogs with the whole garden in the early 60's at a place directly across the street (Milwaukee ave) from Booby's in Niles. Anybody remember the name? Was it Bobo's? Before that we used to get great hot dogs somewhere on the north side at a drive-in type place in the middle of a big parking lot. I was too young to remember the name or exact location.

I like them all ways. I can enjoy a hot dog on a steamed bun with nothing else or fully loaded, with chili and cheese, or with the NY red onion sauce. If I order a Chicago style hot dog I expect it to contain mustard, relish, onions, pickle, tomato, and celery salt. I don't mind if they leave out an item or two or add cucumber or green pepper or whatever.

I have a crazy friend who won't eat the skin of anything, including hot dogs. He peels grapes, potatoes and even skinless hot dogs! I've tried to explain to him that there is no need to skin a skinless hot dog, but he won't believe me. I'm going to ask him why he doesn't peel the skin off a hamburger.

Cogito wrote:
BTW, I am familiar with 2 Tasty Dogs in Berwyn, but where is the one in Oak Park?

Lake and Euclid. It moved to the N side of Lake st several years ago after some big (for the area) issue.

But more importantly, I'm familiar with the one Tasty Dog in Oak Park but not familiar with the two in Berwyn. I think we have some kinda confusion.

Where are the two in Berwyn???

I'm sorry, n/m. I just realized those are Lucky Dogs, not Tasty Dogs. Just my luck.

I know of two *Lucky* Dog stands in Berwyn, which are my favorite in the area. The better of the two is on about Lyman and Roosevelt (just west of Austin), but I can't find an address. The other is on Harlem and 16th Street.

Lucky Dog kicks the casing off of Tasty Dog. I loathe the Lake Street Tasty Dog in Oak Park. Loathe.

Santander wrote:I know of two *Lucky* Dog stands in Berwyn, which are my favorite in the area. The better of the two is on about Lyman and Roosevelt (just west of Austin), but I can't find an address. The other is on Harlem and 16th Street.

Lucky Dog kicks the casing off of Tasty Dog. I loathe the Lake Street Tasty Dog in Oak Park. Loathe.

Agreed completely. I never understood my classmates' fascination with Tasty Dog. We'd always head to Mickey's if we wanted a greasy lunch.

Couple of things come to mind,

I have been going to Jim's original for over 40 years and the only things I have had are the Polish and the Pork Chop. Anybody know how they dress their dogs? For that matter how are their burgers?

In my youth I remember Mickey's on Manheim road in Bellwood as being the go to place for dogs, I believe they were served ala Gene & Judes i.e. wrapped in paper with the Fries.

Went to Tasty Dog in Oak Park once. Ordered a dog with everything, opened it at home to find lots of Ketchup.

I have lived in states with places that advertise "Chicago Style Hot Dogs" but can't comprehend why a Chicago stand would.

A major part of the Vienna Marketing program to out of state customers includes Vienna Brand Neon Relish, Sport peppers and Giardinera both in bulk and in jars for resale.[/list]