LTHForum.com

Chef Luciano/Gourmet Fish: Fried Chicken

In the last month or so, I’ve had fried chicken at Dell Rhea’s, Army & Lou’s, Thai Avenue, Chicago Rib House, Pollo Compero and a few other places.

I feel like I’m getting a feel for what makes a good hunk of bird bathed in hot fat.

Night before last, I stopped by Chef Luciano/Gourmet Fish, the Siamese-twin joints owned by David Gupta (aka Chef Luciano), and got a bunch of stuff, including the chicken. This is currently my favorite fried chicken. Gupta tends to season his food with Indian-type spices (cumin, cinnamon, some curry), and this kind of spicing goes very well with fried bird. The batch I got was fried kind of “hard” (dark and crackly crust), but I liked that, and the seasoning responded very well to fast fat frying.

I also had a big platter of chicken livers, laid over rice pilaf with a stir-fry of cabbage, carrot and celery, similarly seasoned – good offal.

I’d never been to Chef Luciano before, and as rumored, it was kind of a show, with Gupta lambasting a customer for asking for more sauce, then laying into an employee for not working fast enough. He winked at me as I left.

David Hammond (aka., Pudgy Hutchinson)

Chef Luciano/Gourmet Fish
49 E. Cermak Rd
(312)326-0062

Pudgy,

Chef Luciano has been sitting near the middle of my to-do list for a while now, and with your recommendation I'll probably get there sooner rather than later. That liver dish sounds fantastic.

I heard it mentioned once that they had limited seating. Is this primarily a take-out operation or can I comfortably stop in for dinner?

Best,
Michael

"Limited" is a generous descriptor. As I recall, there was one table in Chef Luciano and one table in Gourmet Fish, both right in the ordering/waiting area, so that you can eat in the middle of a crowd of standing people. I recommend taking it out; most of what we got traveled pretty well (though Donna Pierce, in her Metromix review, mentions that the pasta did not fare so well -- I didn't get any pasta, so I can't attest to that, but it wouldn't surprise me if the noodles glopped up in transit).

I work, on occassion, out of a datacenter a few blocks from Chef Luciano's, so I've been there quite a few times for lunch.

There is limited seating, but if you call ahead (and if you know the Chef), it seems possible to get the "hidden" table, tucked in a small room between the two sides of the restaurant. Otherwise, it's take-out only, and that's what people tend to do.

I like the chicken quite a bit, although I don't get fried chicken cravings often. I'm much more likely to order from the Chef Luciano side. He makes a pretty-damn-good chicken caesar salad. I've had some of the pastas before (linguini with pesto springs to mind), and they're just fine. I don't think they would travel well, as they're past my definition of al dente when I'm eating in.

That being said, unless I'm craving caesar salad or jumbo wings, I usually head on over to Manny's, or the Illinois on Taylor, or chinatown when I'm in the neighborhood.

The potato wedge fries are also rather good, are of the battered variety, and have the same cumin-et-al seasonings as the chickens.

This is interesting, I just read John T Edge's book 'Fried Chicken' (good read, by the way) and there is a chapter about Chef Luciano's chicken that focuses on the fact that it is "Italian Fried Chicken". It mentions that Gupta is from India, but (if memory serves) implies that the food there is strictly Italian. It sounds like this is certainly not the case. I wonder if he has changed his style since Edge was there, or what?

Anyway, I want to go, although I don't live anywhere near there and don't have a car. I might have to persuade some dupe to give me a lift there sometime (said dupe's car can serve as dining room)

Ed,

I read your earlier post about the wedges being hit or miss, and they were a solid miss the night I went. Not crisp, and painful, because you could see that, if properly fried, they would have been great.

And on the subject of proper frying, the "jumbo shrimp" were an insult: 8 bucks for 6 shrimp that were cooked in tepid oil, resulting in soggy clumps of dough filled with shrimp that were in no larger than "medium," if that.

I like Gupta's hot sauce.

Hammond

Chef Luciano advertises "Cajun, Italian, Jamaican, African and Indian accents," but neither the Chef Luciano nor Gourmet Fish menus mention "Italian Fried Chicken," and I believe that the fried chicken is available only from the Gourmet Chicken side of the store.

Gupta is Indian, and the subcontinental spice profile works very well with a number of dishes, including Cajun catfish, which has a flavorful stir-fry of cabbage, carrot and other veggies, much more Indian and Louisianan.

Hammond

HI,

I passed many times and never yet gone in to Luciano's.

ReneG long ago entertained having a dinner there, possibly in the kitchen. Back in CH days, wasn't Chef Luciano banned for taking part in a conversation related to his place?

Regards,

He was indeed. Mentions of Chef Luciano's are still deleted on chowhound, I think.

He's got metromix and chowhound thread printouts on his wall.

Definitely true. The "Chef Luciano's" side is all sauteed/roasted/steamed/etc, and the "Gourmet Fish"/"Gourmet Fried Chicken" side is almost all deep fried.

Don't discount the lemonade, available on both sides, which is pretty darn good.

I've never had any of the fried fish/shrimp/etc. Is it any good?

Shrimp were sucky...perhaps an anomaly.

I'm not surprised. Perhaps this comment should be (or should have been) made in a thread on Chicago shrimp houses but I find the percentage of iodine-tasting (i.e. 'off') shrimp at such establishments to be consistently (in my limited sampling -- a 'three strikes and you're out' sort of limitation) and deplorably high, in the ca. 33 - 50% range. Now, Chez Chef Luciano is perhaps a place that has its strengths -- even considerable strengths (I have only marvelled at the establishment through a car window), but it is not the sort of place I would have had high hopes for on the shrimp front, at least now that I've become very suspicious of the shrimp of shrimp houses in Chicago. Heck, in Chicago I've even had multiple lousy shrimp at Arun, a restaurant of considerable stature in many eyes and one which is hardly a place where so much as a single such bad beastie should appear, given the prices involved.

Now, I've had lots of good shrimp out here too, but I no longer trust an average sort of a place to make me happy with the quality of seafood generally and shrimp specifically. Perhaps I've just had absurd levels of bad luck in this regard or perhaps distance from the sea does make some real difference... More distance, more handling, more room for error... Or are they just not properly cleaning them (i.e., deveining)?

Pardon the digression...

Antonius

A,

I'd be kind of surprised if distance from the sea is the issue; I would think most shrimp would be frozen.

The main problem with Chef Luciano shrimp is that it was not "jumbo" (as advertised) and it was poorly prepared (cooked, I think, in oil that wasn't sufficiently hot, so the breading glopped up).

Hammond

Of course, but I just wonder whether the extra couple of steps loading/unloading, driving, etc. doesn't up the percentage that don't make it. Or whether the more plebian places just don't handle them well, e.g., bread them, let them sit around a little too long, whatever.



That is, indeed, a different sort of a problem.

Antonius

The vast majority of shrimp sold in this country are frozen at sea. Any handling problems would likely be between the local broker and the restaurant.

However, an iodine taste isn't a sign that the shrimp has gone off. It's a natural consequence of what the shrimp eat: plankton high in iodine. Shrimp need iodine to develop their shells.

Some species of shrimp, particularly Gulf brown shrimp, taste more of iodine than others. They also tend to smell of bromine, which registers as iodine with most people. If your palate is sensitive to iodine, you should avoid those types.

When cooking at home, you can cut the iodine taste and odor by soaking the shrimp for 10 minutes in a mixture of 2 tablespoons of baking soda and 1 quart cold water, then rinsing. (If you work with a lot of shrimp, you may want to soak your hands in such a solution afterwards, because the iodine can be irritating.)

Signs of shrimp that aren't fresh are dark spots (melanosis) and an ammonia-like odor.

I've heard that. But I was just in Tallahasse, near the cost, and the quality of the shrimp I got were SO much higher than the shrimp in Chicago. Now, I like a good bullet-proof Goose Island fried shrimp with pink sauce like the next guy, but there really is *something* to this being in the midwest thing and seafood...

Rob

Then is there an explanation for this city's late 19th fascination with oysters? See The Praiirie Avenue Coobook (Amazon link).

A brief quote from Amazon/Publishers Weekly:

I have inspected the Booth Shrimp plant in Boston many years ago. At that time and I assume it is still true, the shrimp was from Latin America I think, anyway not the US Gulf, and it was frozen on ship. VI I have no doubt that shrimp eaten in Gulf states is fresh, however, I don't think they ship many up North and if they do probably not fresh unless it is to expensive white tablecloth restaurants. Most other places probably get something like Booths from Alliance or Sysco.
Paulette

LAZ:

Thanks for your comments. I found them helpful, esepcially in that they moved me to look further into the matter at hand. I've come to the conclusion that my use of the term 'iodine-like' or 'iodine-y' above is at best peculiar and idiosyncratic and at worst misleading (even 'wrong', though in matters of sensory perception like this, I'm not sure 'wrong' is a valid judgement).

Be that as it may, I am quite certain that what I detect as being a funny flavour in shrimp is not the natural iodine-y aspect of Gulf (brown) shrimp, as I find it described in your post and further innumerable Google-searched references. I don't dispute your point about Gulf shrimp, but don't think that that's what I'm reacting to. What I am reacting to is, I'm sure, a more or less small degree of rot, of the ammonia and other chemicals that result from bacterial action and the degradation of flesh.

The fact is, in places where I've had obviously fresh shrimp, I've never or at most very rarely had one that I would (perhaps quite misleadingly) describe as tasting of 'iodine'. Ones that are frozen and handled well similarly never or only rarely taste that way (including, for example, ones I've bought here in Chicago at certain fish-emporia). At low level places and even some higher level places far away from salt water, I have had them. The conclusion for me is inescapable.

Regarding freezing procedures, I am well aware of the situation. I also explicitly said that I wondered whether extra travel and handling might be comprising the quality and will stand by that; the more frozen items are moved, the more they're subject to possible errors in handling. I also conjectured about the treatment post-definitive thawing.

But it seems it needs to be said expressly that all states of being frozen are not the same. Temperature matters and the closer something is kept to 0° C the more likely it is to be subject to a small degree of putrification. Handling, which includes the quality of the equipment, matters for frozen items.

I find it very hard to believe that places such as Moto and Avenues and Alinea and Spiaggia and lots of other higher end places buy the exactly same shrimp from the same purveyors as do Western Avenue Shrimp House or Lawrence Fisheries. I'm also quite certain that the quality of shrimp, to be assessed in percentage of shrimp which taste funny (what I have hitherto referred to as 'iodine-y'), found at 'The Jewels' or the neighbourhood carniceria will be quite different from what will be found at Dirk's or other top-notch fish-stores. (If the shrimp purchased by all are exactly the same, then surely the difference in quality for the consumer is to be attributed to handling at the retail/restaurant end.) The majority of shrimp consumed in the US may well be frozen but it seems to me that that in no way means that the quality of all shrimp and the quality of all shrimp-handling is the same; were it so, one wouldn't run into these lousy shrimp at different rates in different places and different sorts of establishments.

In any event, the quality of shrimp at run of the mill or middling places here is not especially good or at least not consistently good in my experience, certainly not up to the quality I'm used to on the East Coast or Europe, where I have encountered bad tasting shrimp at a far lower rate of frequency than here. I suspect others may have had similar experiences.

Antonius

Antonius
You are exactly right. Handling has a lot to do with the quality of the item. This is true for any frozen or refrigerated item. Held at the wrong temperatures for any length of time will definately affect the quality of the item. This is the reason you are told not to refreeze something that has been defrosted. It can be refrozen but the quality will certainly suffer. I agree places like Avenue and Spiaggia and Tru and Trotters etc. probably buy shrimp from that gulf that has been flown in overnight. I cannot say whether the shrimp was frozen I don't know for sure. But I am positive that there is different grades of shrimp as price points in stores and restaurants show and that too probably effects the quality. So the bottom line know the restaurant or store you are going to and select accordingly.
Paulette

Well, if you perceive iodine and ammonia as the same thing, then perhaps you're not "wrong." But it inclines me to doubt your sensory perception in other matters.

No. There are grades of shrimp, as well as different species, as I said. It's perfectly likely that that fast-food joints are buying cheaper shrimp that has a stronger iodine taste and other defects. But we weren't talking about original quality; we were talking about whether or not the shrimp was fresh (or, rather, properly handled and freshly thawed).

I once got food poisoning from bad shrimp in New Orleans (it was in remoulade sauce, which covered any foul taste), so I'm fairly certain that distance from the ocean has little to do with it. In fact, shrimp frozen at sea is likely to deteriorate less than never-frozen shrimp that spends several days on a shrimp boat before it reaches harbor.

I'm not surprised you think so. How often do you think anything in Chicago is as good as on the East Coast or in Europe?

Having grown up buying shrimp from make shift vendors selling them out of the backs of coolers in pick up trucks in the lowcountry of SC, i can tell you that the iodine taste to which you refer is the result of shrimp being washed in a wash of watered down bleach to mask the fact that they are not fresh.

Wow, that seems like something I've tasted before but never articulated.

I would guess, too, that in addition to masking the flavor of rot, the diluted bleach helps kill bacteria.

Jeez, I have never been less in the mood for shrimp.

Hammond

I haven't encountered any bleached shrimp here in Chicago or elsewhere -- and I'd probably notice, because I'm allergic to chlorine. I have encountered shrimp that tasted of iodine and some that had the ammonia smell (common to other spoiled seafood) and I don't find them alike, nor similar to the smell of my laundry room on wash day, either. (Himself does the white load with bleach.)

Iodine, ammonia and bleach are all common household chemicals you can buy at any supermarket. I admit that I haven't actually drunk any of them, but I'm tolerably familiar with how each smells. I wouldn't have thought it would be easy to confuse them.

I'll be sure not to buy any shrimp from the back of trucks, however.

Will:

That’s a good point. I’m sure that some stores and restaurants stoop to similar measures to ‘extend the life’ of a batch of shrimp or whatever, whereas better establishments will take the loss and throw questionable items out.

Of course, bad shrimp and other kinds of bad seafood can be had anywhere and, on the other hand, it is possible to get excellent quality seafood nowadays in places like Chicago, which are far from the source waters. But it remains that in my experience, the frequency with which one encounters, for example, odd, chemical tasting shrimp at some very popular establishments here is disconcerting and at odds with my experiences at similar sorts of places in coastal areas such as North Carolina (and various others).

Beyond the question of handling mentioned by Paulette and myself above (more travel, more handling, more room for error), I wonder too whether there is also at issue here a matter of the customers of those coastal areas generally having more experience with and higher expectations of good seafood and thus less tolerance for items that are on the wrong side of fresh. This isn’t a matter of absolutes but of relatives (what percentage of the public is willing to accept less than very fresh offerings).

I certainly don’t want to condemn all shrimp houses in Chicago,* since I haven’t been to them all, but the ones I have been to have been decidedly unimpressive with regard to the quality of the featured item, shrimp.

* And much less would I want to condemn all non-high-end eateries that specialise in seafood here; from ample testimony on LTH, it seems clear that, for example, Islas Marias and Tacos del Pacifico are serious about offering items that have been well handled and are fresh.

***

LAZ:

I am confident that others can decide for themselves whether my opinion is worth something and on whom your ad hominem remarks actually reflect badly.

Antonius

Having once been involved in a fraud investigation involving a shrimp processor, I can tell you that there are all sortsa things allowed in the processing of shrimps, various phosphates and such. They are added to curtail spoilage, discoloring, etc. Just read the labels of a few bags of shrimps at your supermarket. You will especially see it with things like frozen fried shrimp.

Thanks, Antonius. Generally, the guys who sell roadside on the southern coasts are shrimpers who got back from a run to find that a couple of other big runs had come in that day and that restaurants and wholesalers don't have any room for their catch in their fresh inventory.

If you get it the day the boat comes in, it is a wonderful, gloriuos inexpensive fresh seafood purchase. If it's two or three days old, it might niot be something that you want to buy.

It takes an experienced purchaser to look for hints of items used to preserve the shrimp beyond their normal shelf life. Like LAZ, I wouldn't be comfortable buying them if I didn't have that experience.

Antonius, I would never impugn your self-confidence. However, "ad hominem" implies you feel as if I were somehow attacking you by disagreeing with your definition of "iodine-tasting," rather than addressing your comments. As this, too, is a matter of perception, I fear you won't accept that you're "wrong" here, either, so I can merely regret that you think so.

My question was only partly rhetorical. I really do want to know if you like anything in Chicago better than East Coast or European versions. Can you provide links to posts in which you've said anything in Chicago was better than the versions you encountered in the East or abroad? How many of them are there compared to the number of times you've said you've preferred what you've had elsewhere?

While I may have implied that in such comparisons your preference is predictable, why should you perceive that as an attack? A very short search turns up numerous times you've expressed such opinions. Here are just a few examples:

Ladies and gentlemen, this discussion seems to have taken a personal turn and is headed in a direction that may lead to much acrimony and bad vibes.

Let us return to the topic of shrimp abuse, please.

Hammond

Hammond,

I've only had Chef L's fried chicken once, and was not impressed in the least. I also found it odd that they don't offer fried chicken thighs. Wing, leg, breast yes, thigh, no. My typical fried chicken order is two wings, two thighs.

From your post it seems I hit them, I was there slightly over a year ago, on a bad day. ReneG is also keen on Gourmet, he's mentioned a 'green' sauce a few times, did you happen to try that?

Guess it's time to give Chef L another try.

Enjoy,
Gary