boudreaulicious wrote:A post on TOC's website today by Grant Achatz regarding the role of cameras in the dining room...

http://www3.timeoutny.com/chicago/blog/ ... -of-rules/

Interesting...I love seeing the pics but have to agree about some of the concerns. Wonder what others' response will be...

I generally agree with Achatz's thoughts and rationale and personally would not have a problem with Alinea banning cameras from the dining room (which admittedly is very easy for me to say as someone who does not take photos at restaurants and has not been to Alinea). At this point, photos of food at Alinea have been so widely posted in any number of fora as to greatly diminish any incremental benefit to the restaurant of allowing them -- to my reckoning, it's not as if there are a ton of folks who otherwise were not going to go to Alinea who are going to go because someone posted photos of a meal there last week (although I recognize that me taking this position means that someone will surely chime in below to say that some recent photos in one of LTH's Alinea threads finally pushed him/her to go). Maybe this turns off some segment of the clientele who are serious photographers or who seriously enjoy chronicling their meals through photos, but my guess is that there would be plenty of people willing to take their reservations and I further guess that a lot of those types would find it worth it to go anyway on the merits of the offerings and experience.

I realize no one is soliciting any advice here, but perhaps Alinea (or similarly-situated restaurants) could address this in part by taking some high quality "stock" photos of each of its courses (with periodic updates for new and changed menu items) and, assuming it secured the appropriate rights from the photographer(s) (i.e., assignment of the copyrights or an appropriately broad license), make those freely available under a Creative Commons license or some other license for non-commercial use on blogs, message boards, and the like (with whatever other restrictions, attribution requirements, etc. should apply). I am sure this would not make everyone happy, but it would at least allow some visual accompaniment to one's write-up of a meal (even if not every course is covered and allowing for the fact that presentation, components, etc. may be slightly different).

Tripods and flashes (or focusing lights) shouldn't be used, but I don't see the problem with recording either audio or video of the dish being presented. At this type of restaurant, the description of the dish can be a bit... wordy.. and I think most people aren't going to remember all of the little details after 10 courses and 5 glasses of wine.

And some people like taking photographs, even if other photos have been taken of the same thing. Maybe you'll get a new angle, focus on a different detail, or capture a one-night variation in a dish that's not reflected in the official photos. Plus, it's something you did, so it makes the memory a bit more personal.

Matt wrote:(which admittedly is very easy for me to say as someone who does not take photos at restaurants and has not been to Alinea).

Thanks for the chuckle.

I don't have any problem with people taking pictures of their food (so long as their not disruptive while doing it, which for me just means turn your flash off). Video seems to go a bit too far. I could imagine how that would make servers uncomfortable. Even those used to being up in front of people all the time may not be entirely comfortable with being filmed. Also, I can't imagine that they thought that would be part of the deal when they signed up to work at Alinea.

At a certain point, people have to learn to savor the memory of an experience. Not everything has to be a documentary or social media event.

This really seems to be a case of a few bad eggs. I think a rule against flashes and tripods (or other photographic accoutrement) would be more than enough to halt the egregious offenders while still leaving room for those who want to have photos of their dishes (albeit for the sake of simple remembrance or for blogging). I ate at Alinea with a food photographer, and we were very cognizant of the room and those around us, and you'd better believe we were there to enjoy the food. That said, people should be free to choose to "ruin" their own meal, so long as they don't infringe on others. I don't care if you let your hot-potato get cold and your cold potato get warm, so long as you don't take so long that you cause the reservation after you to wait or distract other diners. It's not only photography that could cause such issues...I wouldn't expect Chef Achatz to ban excessive restroom visits or chewing every bite 25 times. I would expect the servers to inform the diners that they are going to need to speed things up if/when people are going too slowly for the restaurant to function. And, I would expect simple rules to protect the privacy of staff/respect the rights of other diners. Banning photography would be both an overreaction and insufficient to solve the problems identified.

Though I don't photograph many meals, I would be less likely to return to Alinea if they banned photography in the dining room. I don't like the idea that a chef would exercise that sort of authority over my experience. They can have their vision, but I am the one eating it and the one paying the bill.

I think Achatz's point is being missed. Nowhere does he suggest that he is thinking about banning photography at Alinea. In fact, he says this:

Taking it to the next level many people take pictures of every course and some even take photos of the wines as well. I don’t necessarily mind this, but I wonder why people so passionate about food would sacrifice the integrity of the courses, instead prioritizing the documentation.

jesteinf wrote:I think Achatz's point is being missed. Nowhere does he suggest that he is thinking about banning photography at Alinea. In fact, he says this:

Taking it to the next level many people take pictures of every course and some even take photos of the wines as well. I don’t necessarily mind this, but I wonder why people so passionate about food would sacrifice the integrity of the courses, instead prioritizing the documentation.

Oh, I agree. I think he's questioning those who are just there to check Alinea of their list of foodie destinations and acquire the shibboleths that will allow them to rub it in the faces of their less fortunate acquaintances back home.

That said, I can see a slippery slope when chefs start talking about the "integrity of the courses" being paramount. At that point, the consideration for what the diner considers to be most important is being diminished. And, no matter how good the food is, a lot of people won't patronize an establishment that doesn't respect them.

kl1191 wrote:Oh, I agree. I think he's questioning those who are just there to check Alinea of their list of foodie destinations and acquire the shibboleths that will allow them to rub it in the faces of their less fortunate acquaintances back home.

I'm not sure how you drew this conclusion. I didn't get this impression at all.

kl1191 wrote:That said, I can see a slippery slope when chefs start talking about the "integrity of the courses" being paramount. At that point, the consideration for what the diner considers to be most important is being diminished. And, no matter how good the food is, a lot of people won't patronize an establishment that doesn't respect them.

I think you've gone a lot further down this so-called slippery slope than he did. He is simply saying that in some cases a person doesn't experience the dish as fully as he or she could have. He's giving the diner advice, not direction.

On the other hand, I can sympathize with a chef who goes to great lengths to consider the entire experience of the bite, the aroma, the visual impression, how the bite is consumed, etc. and wants people to have the experience he intended--isn't THAT ultimately, what we ARE paying for here? And if people don't "get" the experience he intends, and they go out an blog about it without factoring in the disruption that they themselves caused, shouldn't Achatz be able to at least ponder the possibility of doing something about that? And just as I think the restauranteur/chef is entitled to control whatever the heck he wants in his establishment, so too is the patron entitled to decide if they wish to subject themselves to the whims, rules, eccentricities and skills of that restauranteur/chef. Gotta love our freedoms

Then again, I just came from lunch at Hot Doug's (duck sausage w/foie gras and truffle aoli) so maybe it's part of a my way or the highway vibe I have goin' today.

I understand what he's saying about the integrity of the food, to a certain degree. Their dishes are carefully prepared to be enjoyed in a particular way (take, for instance, the pillow filled with nutmeg flavored air - I had that last time I was there). If you're spending all your time trying to set up a shot, you may miss out on the olfactory experience of that course. That's why I'm often torn about taking pictures - I hate to miss out on getting an optimal first bite of a dish because I'm messing around with my camera, you know?

I also relate to his sentiment of it all becoming too intrusive - the flashes, video cameras, audio recording without prior consent. That would put me off, both as a server and potentially as another patron.

It's difficult because you feel that dining at this level makes it almost more worthy of documentation than, say, going out for tacos around the corner. But on the other hand, if you're spending too much time setting up the perfect shot, are you enjoying your course [or meal] at its best? Assuming you're going to write about it later, you might say, "Well, the hot potato wasn't so hot," but perhaps that's not the kitchen's fault, but your fault. How is that fair to them?

He's delicately trying to balance the desires of the online food community between his own desires to put out the best possible dining experience that he can. I was undecided about bringing my camera to my Alinea dinner in early May, but now I think I may hold off on photographing the meal, and just enjoy it for what it is. Best to leave the food photography for those who are better at it, anyway.

Before we all fall down this imagined slippery slope, this clarification by Achatz on his site is instructive:

Grant Achatz wrote:

PostBobby wrote:thanks for taking the time to elaborate.

Alinea was simply the best meal we've ever had. And as much as we would love to come every season with the changing menus, for us it's not that easy. We did take a lot if documentation to try to remember the excitement we had. Yes, my wife does have a blog. But honestly she's always taken photos, to just capture the memories.

Uh, and yeaahhh... we did video the frozen chocolate menthol dessert as it was presented. After reading this I feel a bit embarrassed about it. So, again - thanks for starting this topic to help us understand the thoughts more.

Don't be embarrassed. I am fine with the documentation, maybe I wasn't clear. What I am not ok with is the documentation of me and the staff without asking, and people ruining the experience for other diners.

http://alineamosaic.com/forum/index.php ... ost&p=3772

Darren72 wrote:

kl1191 wrote:Oh, I agree. I think he's questioning those who are just there to check Alinea of their list of foodie destinations and acquire the shibboleths that will allow them to rub it in the faces of their less fortunate acquaintances back home.

I'm not sure how you drew this conclusion. I didn't get this impression at all.

When someone says "I wonder why people so passionate about food would sacrifice the integrity of the courses, instead prioritizing the documentation." I don't think they are wondering at all. It reads as disbelief that such people are really as passionate about food as they claim. That they are there simply to say they've been there...and what better way to prove it then by obsessive documentation...is the natural next step.

Darren72 wrote:

kl1191 wrote:That said, I can see a slippery slope when chefs start talking about the "integrity of the courses" being paramount. At that point, the consideration for what the diner considers to be most important is being diminished. And, no matter how good the food is, a lot of people won't patronize an establishment that doesn't respect them.

I think you've gone a lot further down this so-called slippery slope than he did. He is simply saying that in some cases a person doesn't experience the dish as fully as he or she could have. He's giving the diner advice, not direction.

The servers convey the chef's advice on how the dish should be consumed. If the diner chooses to ignore it, so be it...so long as they don't ruin anyone else's meal. I understand why the chef would want his food to be the best it could be, but if it comes down to it that a particular diner would be better satisfied by having the perfect picture of hot-potato/cold-potato than by eating it as the chef had planned, that's their choice...so long as it's only their dinner they "ruin".

kl1191 wrote:Though I don't photograph many meals, I would be less likely to return to Alinea if they banned photography in the dining room. I don't like the idea that a chef would exercise that sort of authority over my experience. They can have their vision, but I am the one eating it and the one paying the bill.

Just curious, but how do you feel about this thread? A reply isn't needed here, but something to think about. Personally I fall on the no camera/no dresscode side of the fence.

SSDD

kl1191 wrote:The servers convey the chef's advice on how the dish should be consumed. If the diner chooses to ignore it, so be it...so long as they don't ruin anyone else's meal. I understand why the chef would want his food to be the best it could be, but if it comes down to it that a particular diner would be better satisfied by having the perfect picture of hot-potato/cold-potato than by eating it as the chef had planned, that's their choice...so long as it's only their dinner they "ruin".

I've highlighted two passages in your quote. Let me reiterate what Achatz actually said: "I am fine with the documentation, maybe I wasn't clear. What I am not ok with is the documentation of me and the staff without asking, and people ruining the experience for other diners."

Darren72 wrote:

kl1191 wrote:The servers convey the chef's advice on how the dish should be consumed. If the diner chooses to ignore it, so be it...so long as they don't ruin anyone else's meal. I understand why the chef would want his food to be the best it could be, but if it comes down to it that a particular diner would be better satisfied by having the perfect picture of hot-potato/cold-potato than by eating it as the chef had planned, that's their choice...so long as it's only their dinner they "ruin".

I've highlighted two passages in your quote. Let me reiterate what Achatz actually said: "I am fine with the documentation, maybe I wasn't clear. What I am not ok with is the documentation of me and the staff without asking, and people ruining the experience for other diners."

And that's the crux of it.

Darren72 wrote:

kl1191 wrote:The servers convey the chef's advice on how the dish should be consumed. If the diner chooses to ignore it, so be it...so long as they don't ruin anyone else's meal. I understand why the chef would want his food to be the best it could be, but if it comes down to it that a particular diner would be better satisfied by having the perfect picture of hot-potato/cold-potato than by eating it as the chef had planned, that's their choice...so long as it's only their dinner they "ruin".

I've highlighted two passages in your quote. Let me reiterate what Achatz actually said: "I am fine with the documentation, maybe I wasn't clear. What I am not ok with is the documentation of me and the staff without asking, and people ruining the experience for other diners."

No, he wasn't clear, that's why we had reaction like the TOC post speculating that he was thinking of banning photography altogether. I'm glad that he clarified. Still, there are many restaurants that ban cameras, and I think the concerns raised here apply. And, as I said above, "[b]anning photography would be both an overreaction and insufficient to solve the problems identified."

ETA: Here's an interesting take on the tweet that started it all from someone who had eaten at Alinea that evening and took some offense.

As someone who's taken a lot of food pics -- and a lot of pics at Alinea -- I can totally see chef Achatz's point. And if he were to ban cameras in the dining room (which I realize he is not doing), I'd be completely ok with it because, well, it's his restaurant and he is the man. And I've never taken a picture of a person or their workplace without asking permission, whether it be at a restaurant or any other venue. Manners are manners, after all.

There are times, especially at Alinea, when I know that if I don't shoot a dish quickly, it's going to deteriorate. And yes, this causes some guilt/regret/remorse. But as gleam posted above, even with the printed menus that Alinea hands out, it's hard to remember all the dishes (I've had meals there with over 30 courses), which is one reason why I take pictures. But I never shoot with flash or a tripod. I go strictly handheld, which works just fine for me. As for disrupting other diners, it's a fuzzy line. Some diners get upset when folks at other tables take pictures without flash, even though it has absolutely no actual impact on their meal. I have no problem ignoring these control freaks, who feel the irrational need to govern the behavior of those around them. As for the other diners at my table, generally they know going in that I'm going to take pictures. Almost always, they're happy that I end up documenting our meal so they can enjoy the pics later, too. In many instances they're taking pictures of their own, so my camera isn't really out of place at all. But the nice thing about Alinea is that, in my experience, everyone at the table gets served their own portion of the same dish, so those not taking pics can go ahead and eat their serving without having to wait for the picture-takers to shoot theirs. I always insist that my dining companions "go ahead" and "not wait for me."

For me, the bottom line is that you happily follow the rules of the house. If you don't like them, don't go there. With technology and instant electronic reporting evolving as quickly as it is, I think the conventions and rules of the game will continue to change just as rapidly. Forward-thinking, destination chefs like Grant Achatz might end up looking at this issue on a regular basis and continually tweaking their policies. I'd expect nothing less from those in the forefront of their industry and I welcome it.

=R=

Achatz discusses anxiety of influence, developing a distinctive style without falling into a rut, and other aesthetic considerations that go into menu development.

Alinea was just named as number 7 on the San Pellegrino World’s 50 Best Restaurant list . Alinea is the top ranked North American restaurant on the list.

Also, El Bulli was displaced at number 1 by Noma in Denmark.

Congratulations to the entire Alinea team for another well deserved distinction.

Here's a link that currently works:

http://www.theworlds50best.com/

NBC5 covered Alinea being #7 in the world today with some great footage of the restaurant along with some great stock footage of Charlie Trotter making a turkey (or something along those lines), while they talked about Grant's tongue cancer. I felt like I was watching a cable access show it was such an obvious mistake. In the clips CT was wearing his chef's coat which said "Charlie" in huge letters, who's doing the editing? I guess no one.

I was there in early April after an absence of close to three years and I was again blown away. I know I don't have to tell anyone on this Board how superlative and memorable dining at Alinea is.

All the courses were terrific, but the sous vide sturgeon with apple crisp "smoke", potato and leek puree, radish, and parsnip croutons was just breathtaking - perfectly cooked succulent fish whose assertiveness was both tempered and accentuated by the apple crisp flake and the purees. I didn't want the dish to end.

Alinea has won the James Beard award for Outstanding Service. Congratulations to the entire Alinea team on an extremely well deserved win.

24 hours at Alinea in under 3 minutes. Wow.

David Hammond wrote:24 hours at Alinea in under 3 minutes. Wow.

That was cool! What a rush!

=R=

And in other Alinea news, it sounds like Alinea will soon be serving only one 16 course menu (rather than the current choice of the shorter Tasting or the longer Tour).

No link to a news story, but via Kevin Pang on Twitter:

First I've heard of this: starting Aug 1, Alinea getting rid of 2-option tastings; switching to a 16-course $185 option.

And from Achatz:

After 5 years of being open we finally reached our initial goal of offering one menu. Starting booking August today in that format.

From Grant Achatz;
"Just 2 b clear. We r not decreasing the # of courses offered, in fact we are expanding. Define "course". Some lines on menu are 5 courses."

As mentioned elsewhere, the new Alinea uni-menu is 21 courses long, although they might be adding more soon.

I was there on Sunday for the first time. And after Top Chef made me want peas long after the season was over, the course of English pea, iberico, sherry, and honeydew brought me right back to early spring and knocked my socks off.

When he came to do the table top dessert presentation shown wonderfully here, I mentioned to Chef Achatz that the pea dish amounted to a real shock and awe start to the meal. That might have gotten a sideways smile out of him, but mostly, he was focused and continued to plate. In either case it was one of my favorites of the night. Frozen pea puree melted on my tongue, contrasting with dehydrated peas, bits of ham, orbs of honeydew, and spherical sherry caviar that burst in your mouth. Each bite was a terrific mix of flavor. It made me really want to make pea ice cream.

Incidentally, I noticed that most tables were getting this dessert presentation - more than I had been led to believe might happen. I asked Chef Achatz about it and he said that 8/1 was the first night that they did it for all tables. I guess shortening the menu has some benefits.

Also, we asked for a kitchen tour (more of a kitchen tour-stop, really) and when we asked about the change in menu, the GM said that in the few months before the change, more people than ever were opting for the longer tour. This was one of the driving reasons behind the change - streamline the number of offerings from the kitchen.

I can say that our dinner took about 2.5 hours

This has been an Alinea PSA.

gastro gnome wrote:I can say that our dinner took about 2.5 hours

This has been an Alinea PSA.

how was the pacing, at 21 courses in 2.5 hours that's under 8minutes a course. I realize some courses are served at the same time but that still feels a bit tight.

(i have little doubt that Alinea made it work, just curious how they do it)

We had time to enjoy each dish and never felt rushed.

As you wrote, some of the 'courses' were served together while others were single bites/gulps/intermezzis.