LTHForum.com

you're taking me too seriously here dave...

"rotgut" - as a 'slang' term for any hard liquor.


that aside... thanks sincerely, for for detailing the nuanced complexities of this marvelous cocktail.

now if we can get a discussion going, as to why 'wild turkey'' goes so well with a glass of domestic beer at 1:30 am....

----------------------------------------------------------

candy's dandy, but liquor's quicker.

I've been accused of that before

Seriously (as always), I have a 12 year old bottle of Macallan that would be very insulted to be called "rotgut."

_________________
“We all have to stand before the kitchen gods.” Chef Jacob Sahaya Kumar Aruni

but that's not to say...

hiding behind dust bunnies for twelve years is...

a remedy for bleeding ulcers and cirrhosis of the liver.

obviously, there's a difference of 'approach' between us, towards the pleasure(s) of imbibing distilled 'waters'.

but hey.. thankye again, for imparting another dimensional layer of wisdom to this, yet to be fully developed. palate.

Vya sweet vermouth will elevate your Manhattan to new heights whatever the whiskey and bitters you choose (Wild Turkey Rye and Angostura for me please).

_________________
Lacking fins or tail
The Gefilte fish
swims with great difficulty.

Jewish haiku.

Kuhdo, you obviously like this vermouth. At multiples the price of even imported vermouth, is there anything about the taste that recommends this California newcomer over say Noilly Pratt or Boissiere, my choices if I'm spending alot on vermouth?

Is it only available in sweet?

<<Please pardon my interruption>>

No, there is also an "extra dry" version, which, I've found, mates better with the base spirits in a number of different cocktails.

As for the taste of the "extra dry" version, the best that I can do is proffer an analogy:

Noilly Pratt is to Vya as, say, Plymouth is to Hendricks

A lot of its effect is locked up in the nose, which is sweetly herbaceous.

It's really beautiful stuff, and I have cooked with it to great success, as well.

E.M.

_________________
"Don't even touch my gold, I'm good."

Eric, your input is always welcome, and as usual your point is on target. I agree the nose of this vermouth sets it apart, but I think the mouthfeel is also unique, satiny and lush. Along with the taste, which features warm spices including cinnamon and allspice notes upfront, the overall effect is very different from that achievable with other vermouths. I think this stuff really makes for an exceptional cocktail It's expensive, true... but this is really unique stuff and will make you a drink you just can't get any other way. I like both the sweet and dry versions (both together with Campari make a really outstanding Negroni) either in mixed drinks or alone on the rocks.

MLS, if you like vermouth or the cocktails that incorporate it , I'd be surprised if you didn't find it worth the price. Too bad I don' t know of any bars that serve it (though there must be some) so you could try it out.

_________________
Lacking fins or tail
The Gefilte fish
swims with great difficulty.

Jewish haiku.

I am a newbie to the forum and this is my first reply, so I hope to live up to the standards of this august group!

I have been enjoying the wonderful aroma and flavor of Quady's Vya vermouths for some time. During the hot summer months I even fancy myself being "quite Continental" when I sip Vya red, on the rocks, al fresco. The manhattan of my dreams is Maker's Mark wtih sweet Vya and a dash or two of Peychaud's bitters - and a cherry because it gives me something to look forward to at the end of my drink. Kind of a karmic offset of the bummed out feeling

The extra dry is not as dry, to my palate, as many others, but I feel it has a lot more flavor. I would not use it if I was asked to serve a "dry" martini, but when not specified I do use it. The imbiber almost always notices "there is a lot going on" in the glass.

But I would like to share that Andrew Quady also makes a very good California version of "port" which he, tongue firmly in cheek, labels "Starboard." It is available in both vintage bottlings and blended bottlings known as Batch 88. I would match, and have, the vintage Starboard against 30-40 year old fine ports and it hold its own. It's also considerably less expensive.

I know you can buy Vya and Starboard at Sam's because I have done so, but my family goes through so much annually we buy direct from Quady via his website. I have never been able to get my arms around his Electra and Elysium bottlings, however. Not much of a dessert wine guy.

Welcome, Davooda, great first post!

It had somehow escaped me that this Vya vermouth was a product of the Quady winery.

I didn't know about their port offerings, but I have enjoyed their dessert wines, and I have an especially delectable memory of the Elysium with some perfectly ripe white peaches and cabrales cheese. Not typically a huge dessert wine fan, but this was spot on.

Really terrific stuff. This heightens my anticipation for this vermouth.

_________________
LTHForum Kansas City

Welcome aboard Davooda ! I agree about the combination of Maker's Mark with Vya red.And definitely a cherry too. in fact I've been known to add a few drops of the cherry juice when the mood strikes. Hard to get a better (sweetish) Manhattan than that. I'm going to pick up some Starboard this weekend on your rec. Thanks.

_________________
Lacking fins or tail
The Gefilte fish
swims with great difficulty.

Jewish haiku.

Met some friends tonight at Prairie Moon in Evanston and if I recall correctly, this is a prominently featured drink on their menu. Well, they didn't mention the brand of bitters, but I noticed the vermouth called out specifically. I hadn't previously heard of Vya, but it rings a bell at the moment. I could just be making this up... er misremembering...

My drink of choice tonight was Hennepin beer on tap instead. As always, I continue to enjoy the diverse menu of beer options at Prairie Moon.

Prairie Moon All American
1502 Sherman Ave, Evanston, IL
(847) 864-8328

_________________
Joe G.

"Whatever may be wrong with the world, at least it has some good things to eat." -- Cowboy Jack Clement

Erik M. and Kuhdo, excellent descriptions on the taste of Vya. I knew immediately that neither Vya would grace a cocktail for me. I want my martini to taste (and smell) of gin;my manhattan of whiskey. On the other hand I often plunck down $20 for aperitifs like Suze, Cynar, Lillet, or St. Raphael, so why not Vya?
I did buy some sweet and have tried it several times as an aperitif. It's okay, but there is something about the mouthfeel, almost a glycerine feel, that I'm not crazy about. But different strokes ....
In fact in the New York Times Style section 4/29/7 an article on manhattans calls for sweet Vya (but not dry) as part of a perfect (equal parts vermouth) manhattan. The article focuses on the original (and best) manhattans being made with rye. Prior to prohibition there apparently were thousands of rye distlleries in New York state.

That's my drink! Wild Turkey Rye and sweet Vya, Angostura and a cherry. Yessiree Bob!

_________________
Lacking fins or tail
The Gefilte fish
swims with great difficulty.

Jewish haiku.

If you have access to Sazerac Rye, I did just this (though not with one of those ugly fake cherries) here in New Orleans at August the other night. Amazing. What a wonderful bar, also one of my favorite restaurants in the country.

_________________
is making all his reservations under the name Steve Plotnicki from now on.

The new AMC series Mad Men focuses on early 60's ad men in NYC. Atmosherically it is like Good Night and Good Luck on 'roids-more smoke and plenty of alcohol.

So far all the booze seems to be amber with the lead character having a preference for rye and manhattans. Interestingly the reviewer for Entertainment Weekly talks about bourbon, but I don't think bourbon is ever mentioned. The writers, some from the Sporanos, correctly portray NYC as a rye kind of town.

I don't drink Manhattan's, but love Wild Turkey - and lament the fact that it seems increasingly difficult to find it in bars.

That is true. Many times I have ordered it, only to be told, "We don't have Wild Turkey, but..."

_________________
“We all have to stand before the kitchen gods.” Chef Jacob Sahaya Kumar Aruni

The biggest improvement in my Manhattans came about from using homemade "drunken" cherries. Since we are nearing the end of the sour cherry season at the farmer's market, this might be something you want to try making this week, before it is too late:

Start with fresh sour cherries (i.e. tart cherries, what you might use for a pie). I'm sure you could use other varieties also. Rinse in water, but do not pit them. You can leave stems on, if there are any. Put them in mason jars or some other container that has a good seal. Fill with any of the following concoctions:

1. A good quality whiskey (what you might use in your Manhattan).

2. A good quality kirschwasser (a cherry brandy)

3. Simply syrup (i.e. a one-to-one ratio of sugar and water boiled to a syrup consistency).

4. Cider or wine vinegar (My first batch of this is currently in preparation)

5. Any of the above with spices added, such as a clove, piece of cinnamon, star anise, etc.

Seal and store in the fridge. (I'm not suggesting you can it in a water bath.) Let it sit for a few weeks before opening. Once opened, cherries in alcohol will keep for at least a year. The ones in vinegar or syrup will keep for a while also, but I don't know how long. Use these in place of store-bought cherries and your life will never be the same.

(Edited years later to fix a typo.)

If you like Manhattans, a related drink you might try is the Martinez:

2 oz gin
1 oz sweet vermouth
1/4 oz Maraschino liquor
Bitters

Prepare as you would a Manhattan, i.e. stir with ice and strain into a chilled cocktail glass. Garnish with lemon twist if you so desire.

It is a great drink. If you like it, I'd suggest moving on to the Pegu Club Cocktail (the vermouth is replaced by Cointreau and the Maraschino is replaced by 1/2 oz lime juice). According to Gary Regan's The Joy of Mixology, the Martinez descended from the Manhattan and perhaps inspired the Martini.

Darren72, I didn't know this maraschino liquor existed, and although I'm not a fan of using the juice from the cherry jar in a Manhattan (which I have seen done), this brandy sounds like it could be pretty good in the drink. Thanks.

Hammond

_________________
“We all have to stand before the kitchen gods.” Chef Jacob Sahaya Kumar Aruni

Yeah, I was a little confused the first time I saw a recipe that calls for maraschino liquor. It actually has nothing to do with the standard jarred maraschino cherries or the juice they are packed in. Apparently, at one time maraschino cherries were packed in maraschino liquor (and so it might also make a very good packing agent for homemade drunken cherries). But now they, unfortunately, simply share a name.

This liquor was just included on the Croatia episode of the TV show Three Sheets. This show is quite funny is you happen to get MOJO channel (I get it through Comcast).
Jamie

Had a right fine Manhattan at Fulton's on the River last week:



Bartender knew what he was doing, and I hope I didn't insult him when I asked if he used bitters. It's my experience that too many bar tenders don't even know what the f*ck bitters are. At Due's last week (out-of-town guests requested a visit), I (foolishly) thought I'd get a Manhattan, but when the bartender assured me that she could make it with either brandy or vermouth, and then showed not the slightest flash of recognition when I mentioned bitters (she admitted she'd never used them!), I got worried and went with a Goose Island beer. The Manhattan at Fulton's was just a little on the sweet side (he used only sweet vermouth, and my preference is now for the "perfect" Manhattan, which uses a little dry vermouth, too). Still, a fine rendition, with the added advantage of being served at Fulton's, the temporary morgue after the Eastland disaster just across the river.

The water taxi picks up right downstairs at Fulton's:



We took it to Chinatown, an excellent ride (check out the cool Chinatown station, about a five minute walk to Chinatown mall):



I would like to water taxi more -- it has limited stops, but it's a heck of a fine ride ($4 Fulton's to Chinatown).

_________________
“We all have to stand before the kitchen gods.” Chef Jacob Sahaya Kumar Aruni

Good move on sticking with a beer when the bartender knows nothing about bitters because after you then further inform nicely about " just a few dashes... like three please" you will then end up with about an ounce being added in by a bang on the bottom of the ketchup bottle type move. And in spite of the craft cocktail renaissance it is my experience that the ignorance of bitters in a Manhattan has gotten worse with your average bartender.

bitters is key for sure--once my maker's is gone i will buy a bottle of wild turkey rye to make real manhattans with, since i'm currently using bourbon, albeit bourbon that i really enjoy

Tonight, I made one of my favorite variations on the Manhattan, the Brooklyn, which is traditionally:

2 oz Rye
3/4 oz Dry Vermouth
2 tsp Maraschino
2 tsp Amer Picon

In this experimental version, where I was using Old Potrero 18th Century (a 100% rye whiskey that can't technically be called Rye in the U.S. because the barrels it is aged in are toasted rather than charred), I replaced the vermouth with a bitter gentian-based liqueur made by the same monks who make Chartreuse. I appreciated the added bitterness, which added support to the rather one-note flavor of modern Amer Picon.

So, I'm in Galena last Saturday night at a place called the Log Cabin (a BIG local favorite). I order a Manhattan and I ask, "Do you use bitters?"

This may seem an asinine question, but I've found that unless I ask, the liklihood is high that the bartender will not know what the hell he or she is doing and so will not use bitters or, worse yet, won't even know what bitters are. Pathetic, but true (as noted above).

Anyway, the bartender at Log Cabin says, "No, in northwest Illinois you use bitters for Old Fashioneds, but not Manhattans. For Manhattans, it's just bourbon and sweet vermouth."

He added some bitters to mine, just to satisfy my evidently odd request.

I didn't even want to ask if he could do a "perfect Manhattan."

_________________
“We all have to stand before the kitchen gods.” Chef Jacob Sahaya Kumar Aruni

This takes me back to a fishing trip near Boulder Junction, WI in the northwoods when I was feeling plucky and ordered a brandy Manhattan in one of the local taverns.

The bartender stared blankly at me and said: "Is there any other kind?"

Still makes me laugh

_________________
Life is a garden, Dude - DIG IT!
-- anonymous Colorado snowboarder whizzing past me March 2010

That's funny -- my significant other went to school in WI, and vigorously defends the Wisconsin version of an Old Fashioned (with brandy ... and 7-Up!).

Nice explanation of why Brandy replaced whiskey in WI drinks here:

http://offthepresses.blogspot.com/2007/ ... ioned.html

What's funny is that there is a bit of an "originalist" theme going on in mixology -- in other words, the "true" version of a drink is the pre-prohibition kind. In this view, even bourbon in a Manhattan is a bit of a bastardization and brandy would make it another drink altogether. While I tend to abhor originalism in the Scalia form, when it comes to cocktails, I do think it helps to understand the original conceptions, if only to understand where things started and how variations evolved. This can get extreme, of course -- I know Bar DeVille is adored on this board, but refusing to make dirty martinis (or even carry olives in the bar!) is a bit extreme.

These days, my preferred Manhatan is 3:1 Rittenhouse Rye to Punt E Mes vermouth plus Angostura or Bittercube Blackstrap or Cherry Bark bitters (from Milwaukee).

I've also been experimenting with various Italian bitter liqueurs as a sub for the vermouth. My favorite these days is 3:2 Rittenhouse and Cynar with a few dashes of Fee's Aztec Chocolate Bitters or the Bittercube Blackstrap, and an orange (or lemon) twist. This is a variation (I'd say an improvement) on a cocktail made at Chizakaya, which subs the Rittenhouse for Old Overholt, uses the Bittercube Blackstrap bitters and adds Camparo Antica vermouth (a great vermouth but too expensive). I think the Cynar does fine as a vermouth sub and the additional vermouth makes it too syrupy.

When I can't get Rittenhouse, I agree with those upthread that Wild Turkey 101 is great in Manhattans. Not sure if anyone mentioned this, but WT uses rye as for its flavor grain, which IMHO makes it better suited than a wheated bourbon like Maker's Mark.

The Whistler is no secret to members of this forum, but I especially recommend it to Manhattan lovers. Go on a non-busy night (or early on a weekend) and ask Paul to improvise a Manhattan for you. His variations are nothing short of brilliant.

Not really a Manhattan, but Manhattan-ish? Anyway, queeq's post above inspired me to make it and it's hitting the spot, so I'm dropping it in this thread.

Boulevardier
2 oz. Buffalo Trace
1 oz. Campari
1 oz. Carpano Antica
garnish: boozy cherry

Is good.

--Rich

_________________
I don't know what you think about dinner, but there must be a relation between the breakfast and the happiness. --Cemal Süreyya