LTHForum.com

I think it's very cool that they're getting this attention at a time when they can probably use it. So, nice work, everybody! (For the purposes of the restaurant, it may be just as well that it's made to sound like a more generalized buzz.)

Unfortunately my boyfriend won't even eat sushi; he'd run screaming from this place. I'll have to find some other way to get in.

Forget attribution for its own sake. If the magazine were to mention the site, many more people would have access to much more information than will ever be documented about the place in newsprint -- let a lone a few weeks after the doors opened. Sending interested readers to the sashimi photo would add much more to the restaurant's bottom line.

Along with a number of other questions that I had for Chiyo during my visit, I specifically asked what the Japanese clientele might receive for their sashimi course. Without hesitating, Chiyo said that they would likely be served a large amount of one "exotic" or lavish item. On this night I was served a small array of very fine tuna, squid, and salmon, but roughly half of my service was comprised of the most luscious paper-thin slices of hirame, or fluke. A housemade ponzu dipping sauce was furnished specifically for this item, as well. Chiyo said that this might be something that Chef Matsumoto would serve his Japanese clientele--a large amount of an exotic delicacy such as this, and one with a similarly labourious preparation and presentation.

I am returning this evening. We'll see what they manage to serve me tonight.

E.M.

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"Don't even touch my gold, I'm good."

Amen to that. I'd like to see LTH Forum get credit where credit is due.

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Steve Z.
Photographer/Pseudojournalist

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Erik,

New month, new source of inspiration: September Awe, mystery, reverence

It will be interesting to see how things differ.

Regards,

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Cathy2

"You'll be remembered long after you're dead if you make good gravy, mashed potatoes and biscuits." -- Nathalie Dupree
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Last night's raw seafood course was comprised of two distinct offerings: several large cubes of tuna with a lump of freshly-grated wasabi, and a "cocktail" of freshly-shucked oysters in a shiro miso and mirin sauce.

Perhaps my favourite course of the evening was the last: raw chopped mirugai and crisp vegetable peelings in a salty ice-water bath. A small dish of the housemade ponzu dipping sauce was served alongside, but Chiyo informed us that the Japanese clientele would not likely have need for it.

E.M.

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"Don't even touch my gold, I'm good."

Dang, you got fresh wasabi! That was one thing it seemed to me like they really ought to have at that level. Forget the gold leaf, give me hot green gold....



We had that also-- it's one of the things I didn't get a good picture of-- and this non-Japanese client, frankly, didn't feel a need for a slightly sweet dipping sauce either; one thing I wasn't entirely crazy about (pointed out by Crazy C after it had been rumbling about subconsciously for me) was that there was a lot of sweetness to the meal. That makes me wonder if they think Americans want more sweetness generally (which, generally, we do). It wasn't necessarily wrong in any one case but my impression by the end was that a lot of things were on the sweetish side, from the shiitake duck soup to the clam in miso with bonito shavings at the very beginning.

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I called today and made a reservation for next Tuesday. The woman on the phone offered me the choice of less traditional, traditional, or very traditional.

I chose traditional, in part because she was very reluctant to let me pick "very traditional". For those who have gone, do you know what "level" you have been served?

Hi,

This is a review of a very traditional.

Regards,

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Cathy2

"You'll be remembered long after you're dead if you make good gravy, mashed potatoes and biscuits." -- Nathalie Dupree
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It was served on my first visit, as well.



I cannot speak to that, as you and I have had remarkably different meals. I will say, though, that my palate tires more quicky from salt than it does from sugar. Chef Matsumoto's relative restraint with the salt shaker, as it were, has been a pleasant surprise for me. And, I think that it has allowed me sustained interest and enthusiasm over the entire course of my meals. Meals which I would otherwise consider excessive and overly-indulgent.

We were served two shiro miso-based dishes last night, both of which contained oysters and mushrooms, and both of which were quite sweet. It was a bit of a disappointment, to say the least. But, I am confident that the menu layouts will come into greater balance and harmony with time. Chef Matsumoto is not willing to inventory more than he can readily move, and however he may be inclined, he does not inventory a number of more expensive and exotic items, either. At present, he simply cannot afford to; he must work with a limited palette.

I booked with relatively short notice and when I first called, Chiyo was concerned about whether or not Chef Matsumoto would have enough inventory to accomodate us in a manner that he saw fit. In the end, I think that he did a very good job, and I am thankful for the grace that we were shown.

E.M.

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"Don't even touch my gold, I'm good."

Is everyone in a party at Matsumoto expected to eat the same menu or will they offer some variations?

I'm wondering about a mixed group where some are interested in a traditional menu but others would prefer something tamer.

The erstwhile Hotel Nikko restaurant used to offer kaiseki with a very Japanese menu and a more Americanized one, but everyone had to agree in advance on which it was to be.

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LAZ
Dining Chicago
Index to LTHForum Recipes, 2004-2008

Hi,

My reaction to your question was everyone should be on the same menu, however who knows how the restaurant would react. I just got off the phone with the hostess Suziko, who advised each diner could have different variations of the kaiseki dinner from very traditional, traditional to American-oriented within the same party.

Regards,

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Cathy2

"You'll be remembered long after you're dead if you make good gravy, mashed potatoes and biscuits." -- Nathalie Dupree
Facebook, Twitter, Greater Midwest Foodways, Road Food 2012: Podcast

As someone who has been guilty of this offense on at least one occasion, and probably will be again in the future, I'd like to offer a possible explanation for what I maintain is merely journalistic economy, rather than petty omission. In my case, I've used something like it to avoid the cumbersome and irrelevant explanation that a topic was first heatedly discussed on Chowhound, then discussed by largely the same group of people on the listserve, then by the same folks on LTHforum. That said, I've frequently given credit to specific boards, and even specific individuals when that specific information is, in effect, the truth.

Mike

How about those who do mine a website like this, then never offer any hint of the source of the great find except to imply it was their great investigative efforts alone. Suddenly someone referencing "online food chat sites" is at least being more honest with their reader.

It's funny, when I go to restaurants with my friends I am more often than not into full disclosure mode. They may try to hang the mantle of the find on me, though I may have introduced them I consider myself more a facilitator. I will almost always give credit to whomever the original poster was who found it whether my friends know the person or not. I just don't feel comfortable taking credit for anything I didn't initiate. In exchange for this bounty of information, I do my best to give back to this community which has offered so much to me unconditionally.



You have certainly offered credit where it was due. In addition, you do contribute to the body of information on this website. I'm sure your morning jog past Semiramis helped a new establishment get off to a good start.

Regards,

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Cathy2

"You'll be remembered long after you're dead if you make good gravy, mashed potatoes and biscuits." -- Nathalie Dupree
Facebook, Twitter, Greater Midwest Foodways, Road Food 2012: Podcast

I don't think it has anything to do with honesty. While many journalists do read this site and others to find out about new restaurants, research, word of mouth and a concept I think of as "Steam Engine Time" also play a role. My use of the last isn't quite according to Charles Fort's original idea -- "it's steam engines when it is steam-engining time" -- but brings into play its corollary: when it becomes steam-engining time, steam engines are suddenly everywhere. So it is sometimes with restaurants.

You drive past a place and wonder about it, but you're going too fast to really take note. Then you overhear a conversation where someone mentions it. Somebody else gives it a fleeting recommendation. Ultimately, curiosity leads you to Google it, and up pops a thread on LTHForum or Chowhound or eGullet or an item on Metromix or in the Reader or all of the above. Now how do you describe that process to a readership who mostly couldn't care less about your research methods but only about what you found out?

Let's say the writer didn't find out about it through LTHForum. Suppose they wrote this: "Restaurant X is creating a huge buzz with absolutely no publicity. We heard from our brother-in-law, Jimmy, who knows the chef's uncle, as well as the taxi driver in the cab we finally managed to flag during last week's thunderstorm, and then we spotted their delivery van outside the restaurant supply outlet, so we called our friend Irving, who's always the first one in the door of a new restaurant and...."

Would you really want that boring a level of honesty? As m'th'su said, "cumbersome and irrelevant."

In a column like "Dish," where they're writing about a dozen different places, each of which they likely found out about by different means, each perhaps as convoluted as described, detailing the discovery processes could make the column twice as long.

Also bear in mind that the exigencies and ethics of print mean a longer lead time than it takes to post here. Just because they didn't get into print before someone posted about it doesn't may not mean they didn't know all about it before it went online. For example, the Association of Food Journalists recommends that restaurants not be reviewed till they've been open at least a month.

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LAZ
Dining Chicago
Index to LTHForum Recipes, 2004-2008

Leah's points are all well taken generally; we should not assume that we are THE source, nor that that is interesting to readers, in most cases. I find most claims of discovery tedious even when I'm making them on my own behalf.

In this specific case however, the item referred to "buzz" about the restaurant, not just the fact of its existence. I don't think anyone has found any such buzz before then that wasn't happening here. Which makes the item a bit of a tease-- everyone's talking about it, at a party to which you are not invited....

Again, it's not that I want LTHForum's heinie kissed excessively in print, but it's just as easy to mention the site in passing and thus lead readers to 1) a site they might be glad to have discovered and 2) a much more in-depth discussion of the restaurant mentioned. That would be, I think, a win-win for readers of Dish as well as for LTHForum. That's what I want to see-- not credit, which doesn't really matter to anyone anyway, but the ongoing expansion of the community.

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I think in this instance, points 1) and 2) here are likely true and appropriate. In any event, if the writer was aware of the extensive discussion on LTHForum, it would have been a service to mention the location, giving the reader access to details about the restaurant that are unlikely to be fit into the typical, necessarily condensed discussion or review in published sources.

Antonius

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You know, I 'd like the forum to get some credit too, but I completely understand the reviewer's dilemna - after all it's no different than Mike, when you mentioned la cazuela recently - did you go to the trouble of documenting the numerous past mentions on CH and here (first I find is 2001, by A-Okrent) or was it just rattling around in your memory from numerous sources?

However, I find some of the claims to spotaneity a little dubious especially in regards to restaurants that are not new. For example I had visited Evanston Chicken Shack numerous times without seeing Steve Dolinsky's smiling mug-Hungry Hound citation, which appeared shortly after it got some talk here (though to be completely honest I am not sure who "discovered" it first - dish or dolinsky)

Well, yea--especially to MikeG's points above.

As Mike and Zim point out there is discovery and there is discovery. Generally, I've grown tired of the "I found it game", only because I question how many places are truly found. I mean I did not "find" La Quebrada or Gene and Judes, even though I believe I have given them their initial online pushes. I mean especially with Gene and Judes, how long has this place been around! There are all sortsa places that are out there, that exist, that will always exist, without Forum mention. It is great, really great that they get publicity and renown, but discovery?

Yet, as Mike and Zim also point out, there is a different type of discovery. Those eyeball tacos were always there at Maxwell Street, but from HLings first mention on Chowhound to Wiv's famous performance, they have become known via foodie forums. Erik M did not discover all of the Thai places in and near Chicago, but he discovered a way to make them more acessible; RST and the other tightly focused crew did not (in any way) discover Chicago's BBQ gems, but they documented the current state of affairs and gave great attention to Robert Adams/Honey 1 that he, perhaps would never have recieved. And, honestly, I name just a few people that come to mind.

The thing is, the people who were Chowhound and are now LTHForum.com are people. They do something through their curiosity, their knowledge and their willingness to share. They deserve to get credit AND publicity for what they achieve.

Rob

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No, Zim, but what I did do was do a quick search here, not least to find out if there were specific recommendations of what to order. The point being not to establish a sort of "chain of custody" of the restaurant, but to include a link to a significant earlier discussion if it had existed here. (I do that for Chowhound too when I know of something specific worth linking to, though I admit that I don't just search Chowhound casually much, since it's kind of a pain.) In fact I try generally to pepper my reviews with as many links as possible, precisely for the reason of leading folks to older discussions (or, occasionally, things I just find interesting, like the Garden of Eden in Lucas, Kansas).

Again, the point is not giving props, though there are times when that's appropriate too, but mainly providing the future reader with deeper context and leading them to discover good old threads.

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sorry, didn't realize you had - 'cause of the order of al pastor. I think a number of previous posts on it and dona lolis mention the fact that both places try to do the others' specialties and neither do it very well.

so avoid the seafood at dona lolis (the constant sign out front looking for a seafood cook might be another good hint), and avoid everything else at la cazuela

I didn't order the pastor sandwich! The lack of the meat cone would have been warning enough to me.

Incidentally, I noticed that the awning on Dona Lolis says this, twice:

Tacos de
[BIG BLACKED-OUT AREA]
Mariscos

Anyone remember what the blacked-out part used to say?

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Let's play fill in the blanks!

1. The buzz started on INTERNET FOOD FORUMS, which one?

2. Soon after, the news was spread by a widely-read EMAIL NEWSLETTER, which one?

3. This week brings a lengthy story on the restaurant in A PUBLICATION PRINTED ON PAPER, which mentions that the buzz started on unnamed Internet food forums. Which one?

4. The author is himself a longtime habitue of INTERNET FOOD FORUMS. Who?

5. Rumor has it that another story will appear shortly in one of the city's newest and flashiest WOOD-FIBER-BASED MEDIA VENUES? Gee I wonder which one?

6. Bonus question: how many of the above media outlets advised where the information originated from ...

No need to keep score online this is for entertainment purposes only.

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Cathy2

"You'll be remembered long after you're dead if you make good gravy, mashed potatoes and biscuits." -- Nathalie Dupree
Facebook, Twitter, Greater Midwest Foodways, Road Food 2012: Podcast

I cant wait to check this place out. Everything I have seen/read on lth looks awesome. I should be going in 2 weeks. I will bring my digicam and conduct my first restaurant report of my pathetic restaurant reporting career.

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Today's Trib praised the food and slammed the napkins.

2 Forks, based more on lighting than food.

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Bill-Aurora

The Tribune rating by Phil Vettel was 2 stars not 2 forks. The forks rating is used for the Cheap Eats column. The 2 stars rating is very respectable for a new restaurant with no pedigree and no history. It puts Matsumoto in the same league as Brasserie Jo, Narra, and Rioja.

I applaud Cathy for launching the media coverage of this restaurant. It no doubt was the root of the Tribune article. From Cathy/LTHF to Phil Vettel in only 2 months -- amazing!!

Though I think the star rating is low-- mainly though it shows how hard it is to meaningfully apply a single number to something with so many levels and not all of them easy to say, like/dislike-- it's quite a good review, and hopefully will continue to help get them the business and the prod to bring the overall experience up to par with the cuisine.

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Given how enthusiastically Phil Vettel recommended Matsumoto's food, I can only assume that he docked the restaurant a star for its decor, lighting and snap-apart chopsticks, which he strongly and openly detested. All in all, two stars are not bad.

Yes, his reasons for docking were clearly identified. My reaction to the paper napkins and snap-apart chopsticks was, I don't like them either, but it's nice to see people putting money into the food, not the accoutrements, in the beginning.