tjr wrote:

ronnie_suburban wrote:But I think nearly every northern suburb has its Vienna Beef/burger joint (or multiples) that ends up being good enough for the occasional meal or post-Little League celebration . . . Little Louie's, Michael's, Dear Franks, etc.

Definitely. My personal vote goes to Little Island at the corner of Wilmette/Evanston/Skokie which I think solidly falls into North Shore by any definition. And don't forget, for many affluent suburbanites, their favorite burger is the one they make on their Big Green Egg under the patio heater in their new stainless steel outdoor kitchen (or for the rest of us, the one we make on our 30 year old grill from Menards.) Fries, OTOH, a different story. So many good fries up here.

JP1121 wrote:And then there is the problem of finding affordable help willing to commute.

I doubt that's a big factor. Remember, in the suburbs everybody drives everywhere. And there are plenty of workers at low wages and businesses that hire them right there in the most affluent locations, at least where it's zoned for businesses.

It's possible that young, hip, star chefs wouldn't choose the suburban lifestyle. But the MBA restaurant group exec types probably already live around there.

Wikipedia wrote:The former North Shore magazine had special advertising editions not only for Evanston, Winnetka, Lake Forest, and Lake Bluff, but also for Skokie, Glenview, Northbrook, Barrington, Bannockburn, and Riverwoods.

Barrington?? Truly North Shore as lifestyle not geography. Next up: St. Charles.

I'll also put in a vote for Poochy's in Skokie and Bill's in Evanston for hot dog stands with good burgers.

As an Evanston native it's funny to me to consider any called on the shore that's not on the lake, just as a geography thing.

Barrington has different vibes to me than many wealthy north shore suburbs, it's more spread out and more horsey. Most similar place on/near the north shore I can think of is Mettawa.

MarlaCollins'Husband wrote:

B2B wrote:Small Cheval, a generally well regarded burger, is opening in downtown Wilmette later this year.
They purchased the building they'll be located in so it appears they believe they will do well on the North Shore.

Not my favorite place but that's a vote of confidence for sure. I do wonder, based on what I've heard from a couple real estate folks about how Sodikoff/Hogsalt negotiate leases, if Wilmette is footing some of the bill for/subsidizing the project.

Looks like the Village owned the building and sold it "to a real-estate corporation representing Small Cheval" and did so without making the building publicly available on the open market. Also, the new owner, whether that's actually Hogsalt or a real estate company representing them, can't alter the building without Wilmette's approval and has to give Wilmette the right to refusal if they look to sell the building in the future.

They may be selling burgers but something's fishy.

AaronSinger wrote:Barrington has different vibes to me than many wealthy north shore suburbs, it's more spread out and more horsey.

There are several municipalities with Barrington in the name (Barrington, Barrington Hills, South Barrington). Parts of each of those towns - those designated as R-1, R1, and A-1 districts, respectively - are zoned for minimum lot sizes of five acres for single family homes. Which means, due to that zoning reg, those parts are really really spread out compared to most suburbs. (Five acres is quite large; each acre is 43,560 square feet, so if a five-acre lot - 217,800 square feet - were a perfect square, it would be 467 feet on each side.)

The restrictions around the current owner of the property where Small Cheval will be operating are there first a reason. The building, which began life as the Chicago and Northwestern Depot, has been on the National Register of Historic Places since 1975. I suspect some of the restrictions like “can’t alter the building without Wilmette’s approval” and possibly Wilmette having right of first refusal if the current new owner, Hogsalt or some real estate corporation that represented them, may or may not be related the the buildings special historic status.
That doesn’t sound fishy. It sounds like Wilmette or its representatives trying to keep the transaction in line with the law, protecting a building with legal historic status.

MarlaCollins'Husband wrote:But if someone put a list of the top 50 burgers today, neither of those burgers, which haven't changed in 15 years, should make the cut. And other than possibly Inovasi, I'm not aware of a North Shore burger I'd put on the list. And that's just not how it should break down. Not including Evanston, there's over 100,000 people up there; there's plenty of money; and burgers are as family friendly a food as there is. I have no idea what it could be, but there has to be a reason no established burger place or an entrepreneurial newcomer sees the North Shore as a viable location.

Your original argument and follow-ups are prefaced on the notion that population and money are the primary factors that make for a good restaurant scene. So surely the best food neighborhoods in Chicago are the ones with the highest population density and the highest median income, right?

gastro gnome wrote:

MarlaCollins'Husband wrote:But if someone put a list of the top 50 burgers today, neither of those burgers, which haven't changed in 15 years, should make the cut. And other than possibly Inovasi, I'm not aware of a North Shore burger I'd put on the list. And that's just not how it should break down. Not including Evanston, there's over 100,000 people up there; there's plenty of money; and burgers are as family friendly a food as there is. I have no idea what it could be, but there has to be a reason no established burger place or an entrepreneurial newcomer sees the North Shore as a viable location.

Your original argument and follow-ups are prefaced on the notion that population and money are the primary factors that make for a good restaurant scene. So surely the best food neighborhoods in Chicago are the ones with the highest population density and the highest median income, right?

That's some seriously flawed logic. Nowhere did I say nor would I imply that kind of direct correlation between a combo of money and people to quality. Yes, a large population with money to spend on dining out is certainly a factor when considering where one would expect a thriving restaurant scene to exist.

But there are a host of other factors: rents; the degree to which local governments help or hinder opening restaurants; taste preferences of the the local population; the availability of a reliable work force; the availability of an affordable work force; the demographic breakdown of the population; local traditions of eating out; and any number of other factors that didn't pop into my head in 30 seconds. I don't have real strong opinions about ranking the various factors nor do I think it's possible to have a one size fits all formula. If I had that, I wouldn't have posed the original question because I'd know the answer.

B2B wrote:The restrictions around the current owner of the property where Small Cheval will be operating are there first a reason. The building, which began life as the Chicago and Northwestern Depot, has been on the National Register of Historic Places since 1975. I suspect some of the restrictions like “can’t alter the building without Wilmette’s approval” and possibly Wilmette having right of first refusal if the current new owner, Hogsalt or some real estate corporation that represented them, may or may not be related the the buildings special historic status.
That doesn’t sound fishy. It sounds like Wilmette or its representatives trying to keep the transaction in line with the law, protecting a building with legal historic status.

I think you're definitely right about the altering, but my understanding of property law (admittedly weak) is that they could have put that in as a restrictive covenant that would stick with the property. The right of first refusal is arguably protecting Wilmette. It's also opening the door for the new owners to get a sham offer to force Wilmette to pay above market value. I'm happy to assume protection.

But you skipped over what is by far the fishiest issue: the direct sale without putting it on the open market to make sure they were maximizing the return for Wilmette taxpayers.

nsxtasy wrote:

AaronSinger wrote:Barrington has different vibes to me than many wealthy north shore suburbs, it's more spread out and more horsey.

There are several municipalities with Barrington in the name (Barrington, Barrington Hills, South Barrington). Parts of each of those towns - those designated as R-1, R1, and A-1 districts, respectively - are zoned for minimum lot sizes of five acres for single family homes. Which means, due to that zoning reg, those parts are really really spread out compared to most suburbs. (Five acres is quite large; each acre is 43,560 square feet, so if a five-acre lot - 217,800 square feet - were a perfect square, it would be 467 feet on each side.)

Didn't know that but that makes sense. Wonder if Mettawa is similar.

AaronSinger wrote:Didn't know that but that makes sense. Wonder if Mettawa is similar.

I knew about Barrington from a friend who lives there, and found the additional information about the nearby municipalities by googling "(townname) minimum lot size". When I just googled "Mettawa minimum lot size", I found their zoning regs here. They too have an R-1 residential district with 200,000 square foot (approx five acre) minimums, but what may be more illustrative is that their only other residential district is R-2, with 40,000 square foot (approx one acre) minimums. Even that size lot is pretty big when it's the smallest allowable residential lot size, with 200 foot sides if it's an exact square. They also require a 400 square foot garage, and along with their 2000 square foot minimum floor area, it means there are no small lots and no small houses (as you probably already knew, based on your question).

MarlaCollins'Husband wrote:

gastro gnome wrote:

MarlaCollins'Husband wrote:But if someone put a list of the top 50 burgers today, neither of those burgers, which haven't changed in 15 years, should make the cut. And other than possibly Inovasi, I'm not aware of a North Shore burger I'd put on the list. And that's just not how it should break down. Not including Evanston, there's over 100,000 people up there; there's plenty of money; and burgers are as family friendly a food as there is. I have no idea what it could be, but there has to be a reason no established burger place or an entrepreneurial newcomer sees the North Shore as a viable location.

Your original argument and follow-ups are prefaced on the notion that population and money are the primary factors that make for a good restaurant scene. So surely the best food neighborhoods in Chicago are the ones with the highest population density and the highest median income, right?

That's some seriously flawed logic. Nowhere did I say nor would I imply that kind of direct correlation between a combo of money and people to quality. Yes, a large population with money to spend on dining out is certainly a factor when considering where one would expect a thriving restaurant scene to exist.

But there are a host of other factors: rents; the degree to which local governments help or hinder opening restaurants; taste preferences of the the local population; the availability of a reliable work force; the availability of an affordable work force; the demographic breakdown of the population; local traditions of eating out; and any number of other factors that didn't pop into my head in 30 seconds. I don't have real strong opinions about ranking the various factors nor do I think it's possible to have a one size fits all formula. If I had that, I wouldn't have posed the original question because I'd know the answer.

We agree! It is flawed logic. The purpose of my post was to reflect what I thought I was hearing from you, since you called it out in the original post and the one I quoted. It really read to me that these were the things on your mind when you wondered why North Shore dining wasn't better.

Maybe I got that wrong. You list a lot of other factors as have others in this thread. I think it's complicated.

gastro gnome wrote:We agree! It is flawed logic. The purpose of my post was to reflect what I thought I was hearing from you, since you called it out in the original post and the one I quoted. It really read to me that these were the things on your mind when you wondered why North Shore dining wasn't better.

Maybe I got that wrong. You list a lot of other factors as have others in this thread. I think it's complicated.

Yeah, I'm certain there's no set formula. Different neighborhoods have different advantages. "Ethnic" enclaves like Little Village and pre-gentrification Pilsen and Chinatown have certain advantages - cheap rents, lots of people to work and eat, and being able to draw on some of the world's great culinary traditions. But to the extent we value diversity in food when evaluating a neighborhood, those fall short. Neighborhoods like the West Loop 15-20 years ago, Wicker Park 25 years ago, and Logan Square 10 years ago all had totally different advantages. They were all attracting a younger professional crowd (money), had a cool factor, are conveniently located (less so Logan I suppose), and rents low enough that less established chefs could afford to roll the dice and open a place, knowing there was a population more likely to seek out new and creative food.

gastro gnome wrote:I think the interesting and underlying question here that is worth exploring is: what are the factors that make a thriving food scene?

And now we're on the flip side of the discussion. But it's really just another way of getting to my original question about the North Shore. I guess you could remove any kind of bias from the question and ask "Why is the food how it is in the North Shore and is it what we should expect it to be." But for me, it's an area that's unique in its, for lack of a real word, underwhelmingness.

Now, it's also the only suburban area I've spent a real amount of time in other than Oak Park, so it's certainly possible the North Shore is not as unique as I think it is. Maybe it has the expected amount of whelm for a suburban area that's generally upper middle class and 80% white and skews older/families, and doesn't have much in the way of an immigrant population. I don't have experience with other suburbs to compare. I don't even really know what other suburbs are comparable.

The West Loop and Logan Square are interesting points of comparison, mostly because you highlight their recent transformations and how that might have played a role in why someone might want to open a restaurant there.

I'd argue the North Shore communities probably have not gone through much transformation in a generation or two. So that could also present a different challenge to someone who wants to open a restaurant: it's just harder to bring something new to an already established community? I don't know.

Glenview might be an interesting counterpoint, although it may not meet qualifications for the North Shore. They had a sizable change to the town when the old Naval base was shut down and developed. So it is a place that probably has seen more transformation than some of the communities mentioned here.

Perhaps Evanston might enter the discussion, what with all the transit oriented development just south of Northwestern in the last 15 years or so. Although I'm not sure if it added as many new homes and businesses as the Naval base.

Anyway, those are some outliers. Overall, I would think that many of these communities haven't had much undeveloped land that has significantly changed its character. So that at least stands in contrast with some of the Chicago neighborhoods you mentioned.

MarlaCollins'Husband wrote:I don't even really know what other suburbs are comparable.

Maybe St. Charles and Geneva? They have pretty affluent populations and a reputation for being better than adjoining areas like Bartlett, Elgin or Aurora. Not Glencoe/Kenilworth affluent but probably Highland Park/Deerfield affluent. I wonder how locals there would rate their dining realities vs expectations.

nsxtasy wrote:They too have an R-1 residential district with 200,000 square foot (approx five acre) minimums, but what may be more illustrative is that their only other residential district is R-2, with 40,000 square foot (approx one acre) minimums. Even that size lot is pretty big when it's the smallest allowable residential lot size, with 200 foot sides if it's an exact square. They also require a 400 square foot garage, and along with their 2000 square foot minimum floor area, it means there are no small lots and no small houses (as you probably already knew, based on your question).

The 1 acre minimum is about what's needed to fit a well and septic field. And 2000 square feet, especially if it's AGLA and not footprint, is fairly snug for a suburban home, as is a 20x20 garage by the time you ram in a couple SUVs, some sports gear, a rider and a snowblower.

Underwhelming no more! Evanston is finally getting the Australia-based Mexican fast food restaurant founded by a hedge-fund bro (who is not at all Mexican) that it has been waiting for.

https://www.guzmanygomez.com/gyg-evanston-opening/

I give up.

tjr wrote:

JP1121 wrote:And then there is the problem of finding affordable help willing to commute.

I doubt that's a big factor. Remember, in the suburbs everybody drives everywhere. And there are plenty of workers at low wages and businesses that hire them right there in the most affluent locations, at least where it's zoned for businesses.

I wonder if you can explain your thinking here regarding low income workers living in or close to affluent areas because I don't get it. For sure there are plenty of low income workers in the suburbs and many have cars, (although owning a car as an American right seems to be going the way of already gone owning a home), but they don't live all that close to the North Shore, and getting to the North Shore isn't necessarily all that easy with it's three borders.

For sure no problem for wait staff in nicer restaurants, but I would think a hardship compared to working in the city, or a suburb like Wheeling for example, for lower income kitchen staff, not to mention the language barrier that exists in a mostly non-Hispanic suburb.

Interestingly when I managed a restaurant downtown, none of the kitchen staff were bilingual and many of them worked at several restaurants, especially the early morning prep guys. I also wouldn't underestimate the value those super experienced prep and cooks in terms of quality of food served.

spinynorman99 wrote:Underwhelming no more! Evanston is finally getting the Australia-based Mexican fast food restaurant founded by a hedge-fund bro (who is not at all Mexican) that it has been waiting for.

https://www.guzmanygomez.com/gyg-evanston-opening/

I give up.

Well, at least GYG has settled the Evanston question. We now know the Evanston is part of “The North Shore of Lake Michigan.”

JP1121 wrote:I wonder if you can explain your thinking here regarding low income workers living in or close to affluent areas because I don't get it. For sure there are plenty of low income workers in the suburbs and many have cars, (although owning a car as an American right seems to be going the way of already gone owning a home), but they don't live all that close to the North Shore, and getting to the North Shore isn't necessarily all that easy with it's three borders.

There are plenty of low wage workers already in the North Shore. They staff places like the 2 Jewels in Wilmette (heck, one of those is almost in Kenilworth), the few convenience stores, the Walgreens, the Potbelly and Dunkin in Highland Park, etc etc. Not to mention cleaning services, healthcare aides, etc etc. Sure, they probably don't live around there, and relatively few have fine dining experience, but there are definitely low wage workers present in the North Shore.

Yeah you're right, honestly I misunderstood your post, I thought you were saying they live there or close. Getting back to the OP's question, if you agree with his supposition, and I do, then I think the possibility that it is much harder to get the really great back of the house workers to the North Shore (obviously not including Evanston here) ,because it's just easier to come to other suburbs and the city, could be part of the answer, but who knows.

I disagree with the thread premise. Sure, it's not like living in the city, but the quality and quantity of good restaurants in the north shore has gone way up. I moved to Deerfield in 2020 and just within 10-15 minutes I've got off the top of my head:

Bluegrass
Bluefish
Tapas Del Lago
Boston Fish
Tandoor Curry hotspot
Rosebud
Rosebud Steak
Wildfire

probably forgetting a bunch.

MarlaCollins'Husband wrote:

B2B wrote:The restrictions around the current owner of the property where Small Cheval will be operating are there first a reason. The building, which began life as the Chicago and Northwestern Depot, has been on the National Register of Historic Places since 1975. I suspect some of the restrictions like “can’t alter the building without Wilmette’s approval” and possibly Wilmette having right of first refusal if the current new owner, Hogsalt or some real estate corporation that represented them, may or may not be related the the buildings special historic status.
That doesn’t sound fishy. It sounds like Wilmette or its representatives trying to keep the transaction in line with the law, protecting a building with legal historic status.

I think you're definitely right about the altering, but my understanding of property law (admittedly weak) is that they could have put that in as a restrictive covenant that would stick with the property. The right of first refusal is arguably protecting Wilmette. It's also opening the door for the new owners to get a sham offer to force Wilmette to pay above market value. I'm happy to assume protection.

But you skipped over what is by far the fishiest issue: the direct sale without putting it on the open market to make sure they were maximizing the return for Wilmette taxpayers.

Lisa Brosnan, a business development planner in Wilmette’s Community Development Department, told trustees that the highly anticipated restaurant has all the necessary approvals it needs for opening.

But the village has not yet received final word from Small Cheval leadership on an exact opening date, Brosnan said.

https://www.therecordnorthshore.org/202 ... s-hope-so/