We went back to Capannari's in Mt. Prospect to try a few more flavors. The ginger was very good-- like the Guiness, fresh and somewhat understated. I tried the licorice, which was stronger; also very good.

The vanilla was startling to me-- stronger than any other vanilla ice cream I can remember. You could see a *real* lot of vanilla bean flecks in it. I don't know if this is a plus or a minus, frankly. There is no reason why vanilla should have to be a bland flavor. To me, this was a little perfume-y, though, and would not work that well as (for example) a base for some sundaes. I'd like to hear other opinions on that topic.

I used to really enjoy the Italian vanilla gelato from the original al Gelato on North Avenue -- it had just a touch of lemon peel flavor in it.

If vanilla ice cream is bland, it's not good vanilla ice cream.

JeffB wrote:Welcome to the land of Trixie boutiques, Irish Bars and frozen desserts.

Well put. Having walked around the area on Memorial Day, my husband and I have dubbed it Lincoln Park North. In fact, I was surprised to find it more pretentious in some shops than the Armitage area. Still even more amazing that there is really no place decent to stop and have a glass of wine.

LAZ wrote:If vanilla ice cream is bland, it's not good vanilla ice cream.

I respectfully disagree with that as a blanket statement. I think you have to look at it through the perspective of the question "Good for what?" If you're making the statement in the context of ice cream targeted at sophisticated - or even semi-sophisticated adult palates, then I'll agree completely. But, volumetrically, as much if not more of vanilla ice cream is targeted for consumption by young kids (I haven't looked at the numbers recently). Think especially of the 5-quart pails of ice cream. Not only do taste tests demonstrate that young kids can't appreciate full vanilla flavor, they actually appreciate a blander flavor. (Obviously, there are exceptions, but this seems to be the predominant case.) And many parents appreciate the option to feed their kids something that's cold, wet and cheap, even as they're savoring a Haagen Dazs. Does that mean the bland cheap ice cream isn't good ice cream? I don't think so. I think it generally can be considered good ice cream for what it was designed to do.

... my best effort to boost pedantry on LTH ...

Btw,

Homer's is now offering their Fresh Peach Ice Cream - IMO the best flavor they do

Homer's Ice Cream
1237 Green Bay Road
Wilmette, IL 60091
http://www.homersicecream.com
847-251-0477

I think you have to look at it through the perspective of the question "Good for what?"

I absolutely agree with this statement and to take it further, I don't think it's limited to the circumstance you enumerate. In my experience, that when pairing ice creame with a dessert, a milder vanilla might be a better pairing with stronger flavors.

I generally think it's strange that vanilla is always referred to as "plain vanillla" and that it's become the default to go with other things. Vanilla is a very noticeable flavor, to me. I think people in the US are just desensitized to it. (My grandmother used to use almond in cooking the way most people use vanilla. She sometimes used obnoxious amounts of it, but she couldn't really taste it any more.)

But I found this vanilla really quite aggressive, even compared with other flavors I tried: ginger and Guinness. Only the licorice flavor (quite good, by the way) was stronger than the vanilla. I think I could enjoy this vanilla ice cream in small amounts if I were prepared for it. (Or, who knows. Maybe they made that batch stronger than usual. I have never seen that many flecks of vanilla bean in a dessert.)

I don't think vanilla is really such a natural to go with things like hot fudge and caramel anyway. It should really be something like a flavor I used to see at Steve's in Boston called Sweet Cream. Very plain.

Crain's Chicago Business just reported that "Ritter's chain eyes Chicago suburbs: Indiana-based ice cream chain looking at Naperville, Evanston among others"

"Ritter’s Frozen Custard of Indianapolis plans to open its first stores in Chicago within the next three months....Ritter’s is eyeing suburbs like Naperville, Deerfield, Evanston and Palatine for possible initial locations...

"But one analyst cautions against opening an ice cream franchise in a cold-winter city like Chicago... "He says that Mr. Ritter’s chief competitor, Culver’s, has succeeded in Chicago due in large part to the quality of its lunch and dinner menus."

I stopped at Penguin for the first time this evening (after having been at Taste of Peru, Bennigan's Bakery in Evanston, and TAC Quick - it was an LTH kind of day). I had never visited Penguin before, and was interested in the mixed reactions of the board members.

After ordering Sabayon and Dulce de Leche, I felt that I had visited two different ice cream parlours - neither of which was strictly first-rate. The Sabayon had a powerful flavor, but it was, as "bigfatgeek" said, "gooey." I would describe it as "goopy" - very sweet without the cooling of rich cream. I enjoyed the first several bites, but soon felt overwhelmed.

The Dulce de Leche had a different problem - it was gritty (as some suggest is characteristic of Penguin), but also "icey" with ice crystals still in the mix.

Some have commented on the inconsistency of Penguin and I would have to agree with that assessment. It does have a lovely, tiny park across the street and on a night like tonight it made even these imperfect flavors rather lovely.

Still, Chicago lacks the ice cream culture of Boston/Cambridge. Surely someone - think Cool Doug's! - could find an open market niche for the home-made mix-in style of Christina's, Harrell's, or Toscanini's made famous.

In my opinion Chicago has no true great ice cream place. I like Copp's custard in Milwaukee or even Culvers when I'm really desperate. Ever since Ben and Jerry's got bought out, their ice cream is no where near as good nor chucky as it used to be. The best best ice cream in the midwest and America is Grater's, based in Cincy. In fact this weekend, I'm gonna pick up some pints. Try it!

brschwartz wrote:In my opinion Chicago has no true great ice cream place. I like Copp's custard in Milwaukee or even Culvers when I'm really desperate. Ever since Ben and Jerry's got bought out, their ice cream is no where near as good nor chucky as it used to be. The best best ice cream in the midwest and America is Grater's, based in Cincy. In fact this weekend, I'm gonna pick up some pints. Try it!

Have you tried some of the places on this list? Mitchell's, Gayety, Cunnis, Cupid's?, Bittersweet? What is your opinions on those places.

MAG wrote:

I think you have to look at it through the perspective of the question "Good for what?"

I absolutely agree with this statement and to take it further, I don't think it's limited to the circumstance you enumerate. In my experience, that when pairing ice creame with a dessert, a milder vanilla might be a better pairing with stronger flavors.

I'm still going to disagree. Bland, cheap vanilla ice cream is typically not made with quality ingredients, and is often full of gums and additives.

If it isn't worth eating plain, I don't want to include it in my dessert, either.

LAZ wrote:

MAG wrote:

I think you have to look at it through the perspective of the question "Good for what?"

I absolutely agree with this statement and to take it further, I don't think it's limited to the circumstance you enumerate. In my experience, that when pairing ice creame with a dessert, a milder vanilla might be a better pairing with stronger flavors.

I'm still going to disagree. Bland, cheap vanilla ice cream is typically not made with quality ingredients, and is often full of gums and additives.

If it isn't worth eating plain, I don't want to include it in my dessert, either.

It seems like y'all are talking about 2 different issues here. One is the intrinsic quality of an ice cream, and the other is the concentration of flavor. I don't think MAG was saying that using a cheap vanilla ice cream chockfull of gums and chemicals was the right path to take, but rather, sometimes a less aggressively flavored (but still high quality) ice cream is better suited for pairing with certain desserts.

The statement we were both responding to specifically mentions cheap ice cream.

nr706 wrote:Think especially of the 5-quart pails of ice cream. Not only do taste tests demonstrate that young kids can't appreciate full vanilla flavor, they actually appreciate a blander flavor. (Obviously, there are exceptions, but this seems to be the predominant case.) And many parents appreciate the option to feed their kids something that's cold, wet and cheap, even as they're savoring a Haagen Dazs. Does that mean the bland cheap ice cream isn't good ice cream? I don't think so.

If somebody were to mention a specific ice cream that is both bland and high quality, and a specific use it's good for, I might modify my opinion, but I prefer flavorful vanilla for all purposes.

Wow - so many different angles to come at this discussion.

If somebody were to mention a specific ice cream that is both bland and high quality, and a specific use it's good for, I might modify my opinion, but I prefer flavorful vanilla for all purposes.

I believe both MAG and bibi rose upthread mentioned purposes where they prefer a blander ice cream. It might not be to your taste - everyone's tastes are somewhat different - but that doesn't make one person's preferences superior to another's. I personally think fruit-based desserts with ice cream should feature the fruit, without the ice cream screaming VANILLA at me.

Bland, cheap vanilla ice cream is typically not made with quality ingredients, and is often full of gums and additives.

Again, I have to differ. They may be made with ingredients that you prefer not to have in the foods you choose to eat, but the U. S. food industry is so tightly regulated that it's virtually impossible for any major food producer to put something on the market that doesn't have top quality ingredients - again for what they're designed to be.

Yes, cheaper ice creams may be only 10% butterfat, compared to the 14% - 16% of Ben & Jerry's and Haagen Dazs, and they may have 100% overrun, rather than the 40% to 60% of the higher priced brands, and they may contain ingredients that the higher priced brands don't have (guar gum comes from beans, carageenan is a seaweed, polysorbate 80 comes from fruit - all are healthy, high quality products) and as for chemicals and additives, I think virtually every chef uses sodium chloride, and most bakers have sodium bicarbonate on hand in one form or another. And America’s Test Kitchen has said they can’t tell the difference between natural vanilla extract and vanillin in most applications.

I guess it raises the issue “what is quality?” I know that if I see strawberries in the store that have mold growing on them, they’re not quality strawberries. But are guar gum, pectins, carageenan, vanillin and polysorbate 80 automatically low quality ingredients, and/or is any food product that contains them automatically a low-quality product? I think whether they’re to your taste is a different issue than whether they’re quality products, again for what they're designed to be.

It’s easy to bash the cheaper products, but they have a role, they don’t use low-quality ingredients (just a slightly different set of ingredients used in different ways), and obviously you have the right to choose them for yourself or not. I know I don’t choose them for myself, but many people do, and I don’t look down on them for it (although I will be buying cheap ice cream for my nieces and nephews on this summer’s vacation).

nr706 wrote:And America’s Test Kitchen has said they can’t tell the difference between natural vanilla extract and vanillin in most applications.

They did, but the cases where they specifically preferred vanilla to vanillin was when vanilla was supposed to be the dominant flavor: for example, mixed simply with milk, or in vanilla ice cream. In stuff like cookies they didn't notice a difference, though.

Otherwise, I don't want to be involved in this argument

gleam wrote:Otherwise, I don't want to be involved in this argument

What argument? It's just a fun discussion ...

nr706 wrote:I guess it raises the issue “what is quality?” I know that if I see strawberries in the store that have mold growing on them, they’re not quality strawberries. But are guar gum, pectins, carageenan, vanillin and polysorbate 80 automatically low quality ingredients, and/or is any food product that contains them automatically a low-quality product?

Not "any food product," necessarily, no. Most of the additives you describe are meant to extend shelf life and protect consistency in commercial products. Vanillin is artificial vanilla, fine for some uses, less good in others, including ice cream.

But most ice-cream experts (something I do not claim to be) would say that ice cream that contains those ingredients is of less quality than those that contain only milk, cream, sugar, natural flavoring and (optionally) eggs.

I would also disagree with your definition of quality in strawberries. Moldy strawberries are merely past their prime. They may or may not have started out as a high-quality product. Poor quality strawberries may be quite fresh -- but they may be mealy, sour, hard, buggy, flavorless or otherwise faulty.

However, it's very wise of you not to train up your nephews to have expensive tastes.

LAZ wrote:However, it's very wise of you not to train up your nephews to have expensive tastes.

One exception: I trained my kids on First Growth Wines. That way when they went off to college, I knew they wouldn't be downing Two Buck Chuck. (Either that or they would be holding up liquor stores!)

LAZ wrote:

nr706 wrote:I guess it raises the issue “what is quality?” I know that if I see strawberries in the store that have mold growing on them, they’re not quality strawberries. But are guar gum, pectins, carageenan, vanillin and polysorbate 80 automatically low quality ingredients, and/or is any food product that contains them automatically a low-quality product?

Not "any food product," necessarily, no. Most of the additives you describe are meant to extend shelf life and protect consistency in commercial products. Vanillin is artificial vanilla, fine for some uses, less good in others, including ice cream.

But most ice-cream experts (something I do not claim to be) would say that ice cream that contains those ingredients is of less quality than those that contain only milk, cream, sugar, natural flavoring and (optionally) eggs.

I would also disagree with your definition of quality in strawberries. Moldy strawberries are merely past their prime. They may or may not have started out as a high-quality product. Poor quality strawberries may be quite fresh -- but they may be mealy, sour, hard, buggy, flavorless or otherwise faulty.

However, it's very wise of you not to train up your nephews to have expensive tastes.

Okay, I know this is veering horribly off-topic from ice cream places ... but I feel engaged in the conversation. I'll take up the various points in purely random order:

1) the strawberry example. If I find strawberries with mold, I think they're low quality strawberries. That's not to say they weren't high quality strawberries at one time, but if molds form on them, they either haven't been handled properly or have been away from the soil too long, and have crossed over to the dark side. And I agree that some can start out as low quality strawberries. But no matter how they started out, if they have mold on them now, in my mind they’re now low-quality products. (Although I have to add that the strawberries coming out of my garden now are incredibly intensely flavored - to do anything but eat them straight off the plant would be to defile them).

2) functionality of guar gum, pectins, carageenan, and polysorbate 80. They are not used to extend shelf life – that‘s not much of an issue with frozen products that have an average turn rate in the low numbers of weeks. They do improve texture, particularly in high overrun products (and I can tell some horror stories about one commercial ice cream producer who didn’t use them and tried to ship product from a plant on the West Coast to the Midwest – going over the Rockies, with the lower air pressure, caused all those little air bubbles in the ice cream to inflate, then collapse as they got back closer to sea level. Can you say “both gummy and sandy?”)

3) vanillin. I can’t tell you how many fights I had over this stuff. Blind ice cream taste tests would regularly rate products with a mix of vanillin and natural vanilla as having a better vanilla flavor than something flavored with pure vanilla alone. But an ice cream that uses the mix has to be labeled “vanilla-flavored” according to the FDA (and “artificially flavored” if it uses vanillin alone.) My point of view was that in signature products, only pure vanilla should be used – the negative perceptions based on “vanilla-flavored” on the label would outweigh the generally preferred vanilla-vanillin-mix taste profile. I won a few and lost a few on that one. And, of course, in the strictest sense, vanillin is not necessarily artificial vanilla, although that’s usually what’s available on the market. But given that vanillin is naturally the predominant flavor component in vanilla, there are some sources of natural vanillin derived from vanilla beans.

4) ice cream experts. I don’t claim to be one. But I have worked for a number of ice cream producers (names you’d recognize), have spent time in probably at least 20 different commercial ice cream plants, have advised others (including flavor and ingredient suppliers to the ice cream industry), and have spent a lot of time in R&D labs working on various ice cream formulations (in all cases, I was “the marketing guy”). And yes, there are some in the industry who would categorize the 5-quart pails as low quality ice cream, but just as many, if not more, would tell you that they can be very high in quality for what they're designed to be – a cold, cheap, wet product that makes kids smile. If you’re citing “ice cream experts” who are outside the industry, I have no comprehensive sources to confirm or deny what they might think.

So, that’s a wordy, geeky way of saying I stand by my original point of view – if it’s designed to be cheap cold and wet, it can do a quality job at that. And then, by definition, it’s a quality product for what it’s designed to be.

For what it's worth, Jilbert's, a small dairy in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan, sells its truly excellent ice cream in 5 quart plastic pails, along with more traditional pint and half gallon containers.

The container does not make or break the ice cream. I can certainly see a 5 quart plastic pail being a warning sign, though.

Uncle.

nr706, you clearly have a lot more vested in the semantics of this than I do. As long as I don't have to eat the stuff, call it what you want.

I do wonder how some marketing types sleep at night, though.

I'm gearing up to start making this summer's batches of ice cream, and, given some guar gum, polysorbate 80, and carageenan (the pectin shouldn't be much trouble), I would be happy to make separate batches of otherwise identical flavors for an LTH tasting party, particularly the folks in this thread.

Serious offer if anyone can score some for me. Ideally, there'd be enough that I could do some test batches first; I assume I'd need, say, between a teaspoon and a tablespoon per half-gallon of ice cream, but I'd want to refine it as well as I could, especially as differing acid levels in different flavors could throw things off. Please PM me if this is something you can help with.

I can't think of any consumer sources for the others, but carageenan is commonly available in small quantities at homebrew shops, where it's called Irish Moss. You'd have to powder it (i'e' in a spice or coffee grinder) and then rehydrate it before using. And I think it's an interesting experiment you propose, but I suspect the materials function somewhat differently in commercial equipment vs. home equipment (for example, my little Krups home ice cream maker can churn out some pretty good stuff, but it gives me no control over the amount of overrun in the finished product).

nr706 wrote:I can't think of any consumer sources for the others, but carageenan is commonly available in small quantities at homebrew shops, where it's called Irish Moss. You'd have to powder it (i'e' in a spice or coffee grinder) and then rehydrate it before using. And I think it's an interesting experiment you propose, but I suspect the materials function somewhat differently in commercial equipment vs. home equipment (for example, my little Krups home ice cream maker can churn out some pretty good stuff, but it gives me no control over the amount of overrun in the finished product).

One of the advantages of using machines that take ice and rock salt (or in my case kosher salt) is the amount of control you have over the final product. I've been using this machine nearly 20 years, and I'd never trade it for one of the more modern systems, even the relatively similar freeze-the-canister-overnight machines. There's certainly still some imprecision, but I've got the amounts of ice, brine, and salt down for a relatively quick 20-to-30-minute freeze (which would provide a low overrun, if at the potential cost of some ice crystals) to a 45-to-60-minute freeze, with more overrun and a smoother texture.

Thanks for the pointer to the Irish Moss. (An odd euphemism for seaweed, isn't it?) It's certainly worth the investment to compare and contrast and report back, at least.

This is so interesting.

I tried to track down some of those thickeners at one point, to make fake "frappucinos." (Don't ask; Weight Watchers makes you crazy.) I couldn't find any except pectin, and I came to my senses anyway.

I was just thinking that Ben And Jerry's always seems "chewy" to me, in contrast to Haagen-Dasz, which is my favorite national brand. I stopped in the store, and comparing just a few flavors I saw that HD lists pectin and soy lecithin as ingredients, while B&Js lists those, plus guar gum and carageenan.

One thing I'll say for Capannari's (since I kind of came across as trashing them on the basis of the vanilla) is that the texture feels very genuine, like Haagen-Dasz only I am guessing with somewhat less fat content. I'm going to run by there sometime and check out the vanilla again.

Happened to be way south this morning and was tempted by the siren call of parts unknown to drive along 95th, through sections of Oak Lawn very close to what VI mentions above in regards to Cupid Candies, Palermo, etc. Observed the following:

1) An ice cream place and deli called Millie's, 5108 W. 95th. Worth checking out...

2) A gourmet beef jerky spot in the same area that is NOT Metropolis Beef Jerky.

3) A lot of Italian bakeries and so on.

I think exploration is in order...

A short write-up on The Penguin, including a little about the owner, on page 4 of the June tango newsletter.

http://www.tangonoticias.com/PDFfiles/t ... njul05.pdf

Vital Information wrote:

brschwartz wrote:In my opinion Chicago has no true great ice cream place. I like Copp's custard in Milwaukee or even Culvers when I'm really desperate. Ever since Ben and Jerry's got bought out, their ice cream is no where near as good nor chucky as it used to be. The best best ice cream in the midwest and America is Grater's, based in Cincy. In fact this weekend, I'm gonna pick up some pints. Try it!

Have you tried some of the places on this list? Mitchell's, Gayety, Cunnis, Cupid's?, Bittersweet? What is your opinions on those places.

Bob Graeter is a personal friend and I get to try his company's ice cream every once in a while. There really is nothing in the Chicago area which compares to it. And every time I try Graeter's black raspberry chip ice cream, I think to myself "it doesn't get any better than this...".

The shipping charges are mind-boggling, but if you ever do a blind tasting of ice cream, order a couple pints from the graeters.com website and see how it fares...

Mark

Hi,

I took a food tour of Highwood on Saturday. Amongst the details I was unaware of was Bacio's market now has a Gelato stand with gelato made by Angelo's in Little Italy-Taylor Street area. Does Angelo's Gelato have any name recognition here?

The gelato stand is open to 9 PM daily, weekends until 10 PM. They also serve Italian pastries and Expresso.

Bacio Italian Deli
424 Sheridan Road
Highwood, IL 60040
847-432-1090