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Flour for Baking
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  • Flour for Baking

    Post #1 - January 4th, 2008, 11:07 pm
    Post #1 - January 4th, 2008, 11:07 pm Post #1 - January 4th, 2008, 11:07 pm
    Hi,

    I have several at least different kinds of flours always on hand: bread, hard wheat general purpose and soft wheat general purpose.

    I was looking around this evening to find the protein content of various flours. I found this interesting article on which flours to use for baking.

    I then found Rose Levy Beranbaum explaining why you may choose bleached over unbleached flour:

    Rose Levy Beranbaum says on her website, http://www.realbakingwithrose.com, re the use of bleached flour in cakes: "The reason that it is essential to use bleached flour is that unbleached has particles that are smooth and round and the butter slips right through them and lands in a gummy layer at the bottom, causing the cake to fall in the center while cooling. The bleaching process, however, roughens these flour particles enabling them to hold the butter in even suspension."


    Random comments:
    - Montana Sapphire unbleached white flour is my current favorite. It's all-purpose with a protein content of 10%
    - King Arthur all-purpose flour has the highest level of protein of any of the name brand AP flours -- about 11.5%.
    - Brands like Gold Medal and Pillsbury contain about 9-10% gluten. That makes King Arthur better for some pasta, breads and other baked goods that require the strength of gluten.
    - White Lily has a protein content of 8%

    I am really looking forward to Shirley Corriher's book called BakeWise, which is a bookend to CookWise. Just talking to her recently at the Southern Foodways conference, there will be a lot of usefull information. I met her also at the IACP conference. She did a joint session with Harold McGee answering the hows and whys foods did not bake or cook as expected.

    Regards,
    Cathy2

    "You'll be remembered long after you're dead if you make good gravy, mashed potatoes and biscuits." -- Nathalie Dupree
    Facebook, Twitter, Greater Midwest Foodways, Road Food 2012: Podcast
  • Post #2 - January 31st, 2008, 6:28 pm
    Post #2 - January 31st, 2008, 6:28 pm Post #2 - January 31st, 2008, 6:28 pm
    where do you buy White Lily flour in Chicago? I haven't seen it in the market, but I haven't looked every time I've been grocery shopping.
  • Post #3 - January 31st, 2008, 8:06 pm
    Post #3 - January 31st, 2008, 8:06 pm Post #3 - January 31st, 2008, 8:06 pm
    Fox & Obel carries White Lily.
    MAG
    www.monogrammeevents.com

    "I've never met a pork product I didn't like."
  • Post #4 - January 31st, 2008, 8:31 pm
    Post #4 - January 31st, 2008, 8:31 pm Post #4 - January 31st, 2008, 8:31 pm
    Hi,

    Meijer's carries White Lily and King Arthur.

    Regards,
    Cathy2

    "You'll be remembered long after you're dead if you make good gravy, mashed potatoes and biscuits." -- Nathalie Dupree
    Facebook, Twitter, Greater Midwest Foodways, Road Food 2012: Podcast
  • Post #5 - August 25th, 2010, 1:36 pm
    Post #5 - August 25th, 2010, 1:36 pm Post #5 - August 25th, 2010, 1:36 pm
    I'd like to make the kind of soft southern biscuits that require a soft-wheat flour, like White Lily, but I can't find it. I hate paying for shipping, so I still hope to find it locally.

    Any ideas? Thanks!

    Elizabeth
  • Post #6 - August 25th, 2010, 1:44 pm
    Post #6 - August 25th, 2010, 1:44 pm Post #6 - August 25th, 2010, 1:44 pm
    Hi,

    Meijer's and Sunset Foods always has it on hand.

    Regards,
    Cathy2

    "You'll be remembered long after you're dead if you make good gravy, mashed potatoes and biscuits." -- Nathalie Dupree
    Facebook, Twitter, Greater Midwest Foodways, Road Food 2012: Podcast
  • Post #7 - August 25th, 2010, 5:13 pm
    Post #7 - August 25th, 2010, 5:13 pm Post #7 - August 25th, 2010, 5:13 pm
    What you are looking for goes under the generic name of "pastry flour." There are other companies that offer it, but the refined white pastry flour is usually only available as organic, and thus only in places like Whole Foods (and even then, sometimes not)

    Don't pass up the chance to bake with whole-wheat pastry flour; it's one of my favorites and is fairly easy to find in the Bob's Red Mill or Hodgson Mill branded areas.
  • Post #8 - August 25th, 2010, 8:43 pm
    Post #8 - August 25th, 2010, 8:43 pm Post #8 - August 25th, 2010, 8:43 pm
    Thanks Cathy, for getting my question into the correct topic.

    I'm hoping that Fox & Obel has White Lily flour, no Southerner of my acquaintance subs pastry flour for WL in their biscuits, although the protein content may be close, even identical. According to White Lily's website, Food 4 Less in Evanston carries it, but when my husband stopped there on the way home from an appointment, the manager said they had stopped, it didn't sell.

    I use whole wheat pastry flour all the time, I buy it in bulk at Whole Foods in Lakeview, the North Ave. location doesn't carry it, or does so only at the holidays.

    Today I bought some semolina flour, tucked it in the freezer with my ww/graham flour, ww pastry flour, buckwheat flour, masa harina, cornmeals and cake flour. In the pantry I have Ceresota unbleached flour, Jewel (!) bleached flour, and Eagle Mills white wheat flour.

    Gee, think I need a meeting or something?

    I repost when I find it.

    Elizabeth
    Like to bake? Please check out my blog at http://www.babettebakes.com
  • Post #9 - August 26th, 2010, 7:13 am
    Post #9 - August 26th, 2010, 7:13 am Post #9 - August 26th, 2010, 7:13 am
    Mhays wrote:What you are looking for goes under the generic name of "pastry flour." There are other companies that offer it, but the refined white pastry flour is usually only available as organic, and thus only in places like Whole Foods (and even then, sometimes not)

    Don't pass up the chance to bake with whole-wheat pastry flour; it's one of my favorites and is fairly easy to find in the Bob's Red Mill or Hodgson Mill branded areas.


    White Lily isn't exactly the same as pastry flour. This article explains the differences: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/18/dinin ... gewanted=1

    There seems to be some confusion about whether the flour really did change recently. You can read about that here: http://knowtea.com/?p=460
  • Post #10 - November 15th, 2013, 9:11 pm
    Post #10 - November 15th, 2013, 9:11 pm Post #10 - November 15th, 2013, 9:11 pm
    Sooooo, I thought I was going to try Rose Levy Beranbaum's pie crust tonight but I only have whole wheat pastry flour and have never used it. It was a gift from another LTH'er.

    Any thought on a substitute for pastry flour? Or shall I actually go buy more flour before trying this recipe.
    Ava-"If you get down and out, just get in the kitchen and bake a cake."- Jean Strickland

    Horto In Urbs- Falling in love with Urban Vegetable Gardening
  • Post #11 - November 16th, 2013, 7:36 am
    Post #11 - November 16th, 2013, 7:36 am Post #11 - November 16th, 2013, 7:36 am
    According to Cooks Illustrated, 2 tablespoons cornstarch + 7/8 cup all-purpose flour = 1 cup cake flour. Maybe that can help.
    Steve Z.

    “Only the pure in heart can make a good soup.”
    ― Ludwig van Beethoven
  • Post #12 - November 16th, 2013, 12:49 pm
    Post #12 - November 16th, 2013, 12:49 pm Post #12 - November 16th, 2013, 12:49 pm
    Cake flour and pastry flour are different things.
    Cake has the lowest protein content.
    Since pastry crust does not rise, use your whole wheat pastry flour with your standard lard/butter/whatever until it is the correct consistancy with water. Whole wheat pastry flour works quite well.-Dick
  • Post #13 - November 16th, 2013, 12:53 pm
    Post #13 - November 16th, 2013, 12:53 pm Post #13 - November 16th, 2013, 12:53 pm
    Thanks.
    Ava-"If you get down and out, just get in the kitchen and bake a cake."- Jean Strickland

    Horto In Urbs- Falling in love with Urban Vegetable Gardening
  • Post #14 - November 16th, 2013, 1:59 pm
    Post #14 - November 16th, 2013, 1:59 pm Post #14 - November 16th, 2013, 1:59 pm
    pairs4life wrote:Sooooo, I thought I was going to try Rose Levy Beranbaum's pie crust tonight but I only have whole wheat pastry flour and have never used it. It was a gift from another LTH'er.

    Any thought on a substitute for pastry flour? Or shall I actually go buy more flour before trying this recipe.

    I'm confused - why do you want to substitute out the whole wheat pastry flour . . . that's what you want for a pie crust.
  • Post #15 - November 16th, 2013, 8:16 pm
    Post #15 - November 16th, 2013, 8:16 pm Post #15 - November 16th, 2013, 8:16 pm
    BR wrote:
    pairs4life wrote:Sooooo, I thought I was going to try Rose Levy Beranbaum's pie crust tonight but I only have whole wheat pastry flour and have never used it. It was a gift from another LTH'er.

    Any thought on a substitute for pastry flour? Or shall I actually go buy more flour before trying this recipe.

    I'm confused - why do you want to substitute out the whole wheat pastry flour . . . that's what you want for a pie crust.


    I've never used it. Generally, I don't like the nutty flavor I associate with whole wheat flour and as such I was worried that it would create a nutty tasting crust.
    Last edited by pairs4life on November 28th, 2013, 6:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
    Ava-"If you get down and out, just get in the kitchen and bake a cake."- Jean Strickland

    Horto In Urbs- Falling in love with Urban Vegetable Gardening
  • Post #16 - November 17th, 2013, 7:44 am
    Post #16 - November 17th, 2013, 7:44 am Post #16 - November 17th, 2013, 7:44 am
    Whole wheat pastry flour yields in my opinion a slightly tougher pastry crust and flavor, nothing bad, just different.
    Nothing beats regular pastry flour such as King Arthur and a leaf lard crust!
    Next is a butter/shortening mixture.
    I purchase our leaf lard from a small place in Pennsylvania, it's very high quality, I won't use commercial lard.
    http://www.dietrichsmeats.com/Lard.html
    -Dick
  • Post #17 - November 17th, 2013, 7:57 pm
    Post #17 - November 17th, 2013, 7:57 pm Post #17 - November 17th, 2013, 7:57 pm
    Dick--

    Have you tried anything else from them? They have lots of good looking stuff. And I go right by the place every December.

    Geo
    Sooo, you like wine and are looking for something good to read? Maybe *this* will do the trick! :)
  • Post #18 - November 17th, 2013, 8:13 pm
    Post #18 - November 17th, 2013, 8:13 pm Post #18 - November 17th, 2013, 8:13 pm
    Sooooo, I thought I was going to try Rose Levy Beranbaum's pie crust tonight but I only have whole wheat pastry flour and have never used it. It was a gift from another LTH'er.


    How long have you had it, and how has it been stored? WW flour goes rancid relatively quickly. If a pinch has a bitter taste, throw it out. That flavor will permeate your crust (and that's an awful waste of good butter!).
  • Post #19 - November 18th, 2013, 7:40 am
    Post #19 - November 18th, 2013, 7:40 am Post #19 - November 18th, 2013, 7:40 am
    Geo wrote:Dick--

    Have you tried anything else from them? They have lots of good looking stuff. And I go right by the place every December.

    Geo


    Yes, I have. When we first starting ordering the leaf lard after reading an article in the now defunct Savaeur magazine(I say defunct because the original owners sold the publication, quality tanked and I no longer subscribe), I ordered a number of smoked products including bacon, sausage and whatever, the smoked products were so-so. There are many many local, small providers of smoked products around the US. All tout their products as being the best and each appears to have many fans but I believe it's probably a case of that's what you are used to. So after that first go around, I only order the leaf lard and freeze but keep one unfrozen for usage. I did notice that the website does not say leaf lard anymore, so if ordering, be sure to specify leaf lard.
    We do blind tastings when we can to eliminate as much as we can of the subjective but it's amazing how many people will not submit their favorite to a blind test. So a brand name is worth a lot even if the product bears no relation to the original.
    The perception must be so deeply engrained in the mind to overcome one's senses!
    In any event, I would stop in but taste before purchasing.-Dick
  • Post #20 - November 18th, 2013, 7:52 pm
    Post #20 - November 18th, 2013, 7:52 pm Post #20 - November 18th, 2013, 7:52 pm
    sundevilpeg wrote:
    Sooooo, I thought I was going to try Rose Levy Beranbaum's pie crust tonight but I only have whole wheat pastry flour and have never used it. It was a gift from another LTH'er.


    How long have you had it, and how has it been stored? WW flour goes rancid relatively quickly. If a pinch has a bitter taste, throw it out. That flavor will permeate your crust (and that's an awful waste of good butter!).


    Thanks for the tip. I store flour in the freezer. Will taste before using.
    Ava-"If you get down and out, just get in the kitchen and bake a cake."- Jean Strickland

    Horto In Urbs- Falling in love with Urban Vegetable Gardening
  • Post #21 - November 23rd, 2013, 4:00 am
    Post #21 - November 23rd, 2013, 4:00 am Post #21 - November 23rd, 2013, 4:00 am
    Well my King Arthur flour order arrived last night.
    Rather than try phoning and traveling around Chicago to see who has King Arthur pastry, cake, French, Hazelnut and sprouted wheat along with 25#'s of AP, shipping was only $14 for the lot.
    I will making pumpkin pies for thanksgiving with leaf lard crust, french bread and a hazelnut layer cake ala Bernachon will follow for XMAS. -Dick
  • Post #22 - November 5th, 2019, 4:52 pm
    Post #22 - November 5th, 2019, 4:52 pm Post #22 - November 5th, 2019, 4:52 pm
    Miss Mimi wrote:where do you buy White Lily flour in Chicago?

    Bought White Lily today at Food 4 Less on North Ave. According to the White Lily web site all the Food 4 Less stores carry it, including Evanston.

    WhiteLily1.jpg White Lily Self Rising Flour, Food 4 Less North Ave

    Food 4 Less 4821 W North Ave, Chicago
    Food 4 Less 2400 W Main St, Evanston
    Hold my beer . . .

    Low & Slow
  • Post #23 - November 5th, 2019, 6:05 pm
    Post #23 - November 5th, 2019, 6:05 pm Post #23 - November 5th, 2019, 6:05 pm
    Oh, cool! Good to know, as there's a couple Food 4 Lesses near me. Meijer used to have them, but it's been many years since I've seen it there or anywhere in Chicagoland, and it never did occur to me to look at the website to see if they had a store locator, smh.
  • Post #24 - August 22nd, 2020, 6:30 am
    Post #24 - August 22nd, 2020, 6:30 am Post #24 - August 22nd, 2020, 6:30 am
    I'm a little late to the party, but I've been so taken out of my comfort zone lately that I really wanted to share my experiences. I've been baking for more decades than I like to think about. And for most of those decades, I've used King Arthur flour. With the pandemic, it became impossible to find and so, after reading a little blurb in a magazine (I think it was Saveur but am not certain), I looked at the website of a place called Barton Springs Mill in Texas. (They are obviously one of dozens, if not hundreds, but since I don't have the patience to sort through them all, and since one was recommended, I visited it.)
    I really liked their website: they have a nice, but not overwhelming, selection of different flours and a lot of incredibly helpful information and FAQs (including some charts recommending specific flours for specific applications). I also like that you can order as little as 2.5 pounds at a time and that you can order many of the flours as either whole wheat or 00. Now the flour is not cheap, but when you consider what you're getting.... In any event, price is something everyone needs to decide for themselves.
    The point of my post is that I've been baking with these flours lately and it's like night and day. KA flour is great, but it has no "character." It works beautifully and makes wonderful items, but there is no distinctive flour taste. I've made bread with these new flours alone (generally hard red) and the flavors just jump out at you. Whether I like them or not, it's incredible to see how much flavor "plain old flour" can have. I feel like I've been doing it wrong all these years. We have gotten so used to cakes and cookies and breads and pastries that need gussying up precisely because the flour no longer has any flavor of its own. Just like chicken and pork and.... Well, you get the idea.
    If you're interested, I'd urge you to at least take a look at their site. Who knows, you might even like this "artisanal" flour (my appellation, not theirs). Happy baking!
    Gypsy Boy

    "I am not a glutton--I am an explorer of food." (Erma Bombeck)
  • Post #25 - August 23rd, 2020, 1:26 pm
    Post #25 - August 23rd, 2020, 1:26 pm Post #25 - August 23rd, 2020, 1:26 pm
    Gypsy Boy wrote:The point of my post is that I've been baking with these flours lately and it's like night and day. KA flour is great, but it has no "character." It works beautifully and makes wonderful items, but there is no distinctive flour taste.

    I too, am late to the party. I've been baking, mostly cookies, for a few months and it's been 2 decades since I was seriously baking bread. But you've articulated something here that I've been thinking about during my brief baking renaissance. Having been forced to draw upon alternative sources for many items over the past few months, I've found that when it comes to flour, just about every boutique, small-producer flour I've tried leads to more interesting and flavorful results than King Arthur.

    KA is fine and reliable and -- as you say -- without much character. I'm guessing that's a plus for a lot of bakers, especially in commercial and industrial settings, where standardization and long-term consistency are top priorities. But as a home baker in quest of something distinctive and delicious, I've found that when making the same recipe more than once, I've consistently liked the non-KA results beter than the KA results. At first I thought I was just imagining a difference. But the non-KA stuff even looks different and it definitely tastes better, too. Now, reading your comments, I feel somewhat vindicated.

    =R=
    By protecting others, you save yourself. If you only think of yourself, you'll only destroy yourself. --Kambei Shimada

    Every human interaction is an opportunity for disappointment --RS

    There's a horse loose in a hospital --JM

    That don't impress me much --Shania Twain
  • Post #26 - August 26th, 2020, 10:29 am
    Post #26 - August 26th, 2020, 10:29 am Post #26 - August 26th, 2020, 10:29 am
    Good to hear my impressions are not unique.

    I just received another shipment a few days ago and am looking forward to trying out some of the new hard red wheats, each by itself, to see where it takes me. One thing I particularly like about the Barton Springs site, too, is that it gives you a general notion of what to expect in terms of each wheat's flavor.
    Gypsy Boy

    "I am not a glutton--I am an explorer of food." (Erma Bombeck)

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