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    Post #1 - December 7th, 2008, 11:10 am
    Post #1 - December 7th, 2008, 11:10 am Post #1 - December 7th, 2008, 11:10 am
    I'm looking for help refining my pizza dough. I've been making pizzas pretty obsessively for a long time, and I've got a couple doughs I'm happy with until I go to one my favorite pizzerias. After these visits, I wonder how I could make dough more like theirs. I was particularly impressed by a recent visit to Coalfire.

    I would like a dough that is thin, tender, and just begins to char in little spots on the bottom before I pull it out of the oven.

    My current dough tends to be thicker and breadier than I think is perfect. I've tried lots of variants using different flours, ratios of flour to water, longer rise times, etc, and I have not come close to a solution. My best guess is that the solution is mainly in how I handle the dough and partly in improved ratios.

    For background, my basic dough is flour, water, salt, and yeast with a flour to water ratio slightly wetter than 3 to 2 by weight. I usually use King Arthur unbleached flour and the dough is shaped by sort of passing it back and forth between my hands, bottom half supported on a wood board, with dough rotating on each pass.

    Thanks,
    Statler
  • Post #2 - December 7th, 2008, 11:27 am
    Post #2 - December 7th, 2008, 11:27 am Post #2 - December 7th, 2008, 11:27 am
    Odds are, because of the heat they can generate they use some kind of "00" flour which is designed for such temperatures. The ordinary home oven can't do what they do because it's running at 500, not 800 or 1000 degrees.
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  • Post #3 - December 7th, 2008, 11:55 am
    Post #3 - December 7th, 2008, 11:55 am Post #3 - December 7th, 2008, 11:55 am
    Mike G wrote:Odds are, because of the heat they can generate they use some kind of "00" flour which is designed for such temperatures. The ordinary home oven can't do what they do because it's running at 500, not 800 or 1000 degrees.

    I asked about the flour at Coalfire. Clearly, they don't want to give away too much, but I got the impression they are using a high quality all purpose flour. The oven is a huge factor, but I don't think I'm at the limits of what can be done at home.

    Statler
  • Post #4 - December 7th, 2008, 2:00 pm
    Post #4 - December 7th, 2008, 2:00 pm Post #4 - December 7th, 2008, 2:00 pm
    Actually, I do think you will find the home oven limits you. You're not going to get those charred flecks without a seriously hot oven. Anyhow, this guy has figured one method out, and it involves using its cleaning mode (which brings the oven up to 900 degrees or so) and bypassing its safety mechanism that doesn't allow it to be opened when its in this mode. Go down to to the picture of the pizza in the foreground and a flour pot in the background, and right under it "4 - The Oven" starts his explanation.

    Other than temps, Jeff describes the ingredients and dough in excruciating detail. I would start there. Also check out pizzamaking.com for all sorts of tips as well.
  • Post #5 - December 7th, 2008, 4:17 pm
    Post #5 - December 7th, 2008, 4:17 pm Post #5 - December 7th, 2008, 4:17 pm
    Binko wrote:Anyhow, this guy has figured one method out, and it involves using its cleaning mode (which brings the oven up to 900 degrees or so) and bypassing its safety mechanism that doesn't allow it to be opened when its in this mode.
    I appreciate this guy's passion for pizza, but I got nervous even reading this.
    "things like being careful with your coriander/ that's what makes the gravy grander" - Sondheim
  • Post #6 - December 7th, 2008, 4:25 pm
    Post #6 - December 7th, 2008, 4:25 pm Post #6 - December 7th, 2008, 4:25 pm
    There are plenty of people at pizzmaking.com making all styles of great pies using home ovens without disabling the safety features. Neapolitan-style pies are the notable exception.

    Bill/SFNM (moderator at pizzamaking.com)
  • Post #7 - December 7th, 2008, 5:25 pm
    Post #7 - December 7th, 2008, 5:25 pm Post #7 - December 7th, 2008, 5:25 pm
    grits wrote:
    Binko wrote:Anyhow, this guy has figured one method out, and it involves using its cleaning mode (which brings the oven up to 900 degrees or so) and bypassing its safety mechanism that doesn't allow it to be opened when its in this mode.
    I appreciate this guy's passion for pizza, but I got nervous even reading this.


    Yeah, I've never gotten the courage to try something like that. Usually, I'm a "What can go wrong?" kind of person, but I'm not going to destroy my oven for a couple good pizzas. I've gotten some slight charring by using a pizza stone on top of the hottest fire I could make in my grill, but even then I have difficulty getting the cooking surface hot enough. I need to get one of those instant-read thermometers, but, if I had to guess, I don't think I got the cooking stone much past 650. (Plus, even with the grill, you have the issue of the top of the pizza cooking, which I get around by finishing the pizza under a broiler.)
  • Post #8 - December 8th, 2008, 10:25 am
    Post #8 - December 8th, 2008, 10:25 am Post #8 - December 8th, 2008, 10:25 am
    Wow, thanks! Those references should keep me busy for a couple more years.

    Statler
  • Post #9 - May 2nd, 2010, 4:53 pm
    Post #9 - May 2nd, 2010, 4:53 pm Post #9 - May 2nd, 2010, 4:53 pm
    I've gotten so much help learning to make bread and pizza dough (among other things) from folks on this site, I thought I would try and pass along what I've learned. I've been really happy with my recent batches of pizza dough. I thought I'd consolidate my lessons learned here. I occasionally use Peter Reinhart's Napolitano dough but I feel like the recipe below works best in my home oven. Please, pizza gurus, feel free to add corrections/suggestions.

    Wild Yeast (Sourdough) Pizza Dough

    Adapted from Peter Reinhart’s American Pie and Jeff Verasano’s website, with lots of tips gleaned from Bill/SFNM’s posts on LTH Extreme Cooking blog and videos and a tip or two from Bridgestone (hope you don't mind my gathering all the info together here). Holding back some of the flour with the initial mixing was a critical tip. Especially with a Kitchenaid mixer—the process is much more efficient with a wetter dough initially.

    Starter activation:

    I use a 3:2 flour:water ratio for a relatively dry starter. I’m not sure why—basically just an average of the different proportions I have read about.

    1. Take starter out of the fridge 30 minutes before activation

    2. Add :
    ½ cup (120 g) filtered water
    ¾ cup (90 g) bread flour

    3. Stir vigorously
    Now it looks like this:

    Image

    4. Place in a warm place for 2+ hours (or until about doubled). Make sure to put something under the starter container, in case it bubbles over. I use the proof function on my oven set to 85 degrees.

    On the rare occasion I catch it before it overflows, it looks like this:
    Image

    5. When finished, remove 1 cup of starter, add another ½ cup filtered water and ¾ cup bread flour to recharge starter. Wait about 1 hour before putting starter back in fridge.


    Dough:

    4 cups (500 g) of bread flour (note: for chewier dough, you can substitute 2.5 T of Vital Wheat Gluten flour for an equivalent amount of bread flour--I can't decide yet if I can tell a difference but I put some in my last batch)
    1-1 ¼ cup filtered water
    2 t (10g) fine sea salt
    2 T honey
    3 T olive oil
    1 cup activated starter (see above)

    Note: instructions given are for mixer. If you don’t have a mixer, you can knead by hand for the same length of time (wet one hand and use it like a dough hook per Reinhart).

    1. Mix 3 cups of the flour and 1 cup water with all the remaining ingredients. Dough should look wet and be very sticky. If it’s not, add some more water.
    2. Mix with a spoon to moisten flour, then on low speed for 1-2 minutes

    Image

    3. Let rest for 20 minutes

    Image

    4. Mix for about 8 minutes more. Let rest 1 minute. Restart mixer pausing every 30-60 seconds to gradually add the remaining cup of flour and mix for another 3-4 minutes. The dough should be sticking to the bottom of the bowl but otherwise should NOT be sticking. Add small amounts of water/flour as needed to get proper consistency.

    Sticking to the bottom only:
    Image

    5. Let rest for 15 more minutes
    6. Mix for additional 1 minute.
    7. At this point, pull off a small piece of dough and dust it with flour. It should feel very smooth and should be elastic when you stretch it. If not, mix 4 more minutes, let rest another 10 and try again.

    Very soft and smooth
    Image

    Image

    Sort of a windowpane test (I usually can't get a true windowpane with my pizza dough)

    Image

    8. Transfer to a lightly floured work surface and knead by hand for about a minute.

    9. Divide into 4 pieces with a knife or dough scraper.

    10. Lightly oil 4 small containers, place a piece of dough in each. Lightly oil top of dough ball and cover container.

    Image

    11. Leave out for about 3 hours, and then refrigerate overnight. After that you should use the dough within 3 days or freeze in containers.

    After 3 hours:

    Voila!
    Image





    Tips for Making Pizza

    1. Don’t freeze dough until it’s had 1-2 days to rise
    2. If using frozen dough, leave it out for a day on the counter or overnight in the fridge.
    3. Remove refrigerated dough about 2.5-3 hours before use
    4. Don’t roll out pizza dough. Dust the surface you will be working with a light coating of flour. Gently stretch it with your hands. If it looks like it may tear or it doesn’t stretch anymore, leave it covered with a towel for 10 minutes, then return to stretch it some more. The principle is that you are trying to keep the air pockets the yeast created.
    5. When dough is stretched into a thick circle, transfer it to parchment paper dusted with cornmeal or flour for further stretching
    6. When dough is fully stretched, transfer parchment with dough to a peel or the backside of a cookie sheet and use that to transfer parchment + dough to stone. (Mike G's tip)
    7. Pre-heat your oven with the stone in it at your oven's highest setting for about an hour if you can.

    Edited to add another big THANK YOU! to Mike G for his life-changing parchment paper tip
  • Post #10 - November 14th, 2011, 10:07 am
    Post #10 - November 14th, 2011, 10:07 am Post #10 - November 14th, 2011, 10:07 am
    Thaiobsessed,

    I used your pizza dough recipe this weekend (with a few modifications) to great success and wanted to thank you and also ask you, and others, for some tips.

    This was my first time using bread flour, and I really liked it. A friend was also making pizza using a dough she made with AP flour. Everyone thought my dough was tastier. For a starter, I used cheap instant yeast. Also, I don't have a mixer so everything was done by hand, which wasn't as messy as it usually is when I make pizza. I chalk this up to the proportions in your recipe, which produce a nice workable dough without being too wet and sticky.

    I gave the dough a first, long rise on the counter. About two hours later I punched the air out, and packed it into a large tupperwear for a trip on the subway. 20 minutes later, when I got to my friend's apartment, the dough had grown out of its container, resembling the grotesque creature in the final scenes of Akira. I punched it down again and split it into four balls for a final rise. So three rises I guess?

    A few problems though - I could not for the life of me stretch this dough out by hand. It rose beautifully and was very pliable, but as I tried to stretch it into a medium size circle, it resisted and pulled back on itself. Stretching it out into a reasonable size left gaping holes in the middle. Finally, to my chagrin, I ended up using a rolling pin to get the job done. In contrast, my friend's dough (AP flour) was easy to stretch and toss, drooping all over the place and highly elastic. She was able to stretch even pizzas with relative ease. Some of this was probably experience, but even she couldn't work with my product.

    Still, my pizzas turned out pretty great. Even after rolling with a pin, the crust contained noticeable air bubbles. I didn't hurt that I topped them with the best pecorino and fresh mozz I could find, as well as a great "cooked" tomato sauce I made from pureed san marzanos, basil and chili peppers.

    So any recommendations on stretching this feisty dough? Is there a way I could have made it more pliable - longer/short/multiple rises, etc.? The pizza was so good that I want to make it next week.

    Also, thanks for the recipe. It's a keeper.
    "By the fig, the olive..." Surat Al-Teen, Mecca 95:1"
  • Post #11 - November 14th, 2011, 10:45 am
    Post #11 - November 14th, 2011, 10:45 am Post #11 - November 14th, 2011, 10:45 am
    Bread flour has more gluten than AP, so it's going to be harder to stretch. One way to help stretching is to use a higher hydration (more water) dough. The original recipe with the starter was using a significant amount of starter with a lot of water in it. By just replacing it with instant yeast, you've got less water in the dough, which made it drier and harder to stretch. So you can adjust by adding more water to the dough.
    Last edited by rickster on November 14th, 2011, 3:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
  • Post #12 - November 14th, 2011, 2:52 pm
    Post #12 - November 14th, 2011, 2:52 pm Post #12 - November 14th, 2011, 2:52 pm
    I had the same problem stretching the dough. I also have bought some store bought raw doughs like trader joes that were impossible to stretch. Kept popping back. I did not like the store bought doughs so I made some from scratch using yeast not a starter. I divided the dough in half and froze the rest. I found the homemade dough is easier to stretch and especially if it has been frozen or kept overnight in the fridge. The first pizza was made the day I made the dough and it was more difficult to stretch.
    Toria

    "I like this place and willingly could waste my time in it" - As You Like It,
    W. Shakespeare
  • Post #13 - November 14th, 2011, 7:09 pm
    Post #13 - November 14th, 2011, 7:09 pm Post #13 - November 14th, 2011, 7:09 pm
    Habibi wrote:So any recommendations on stretching this feisty dough? Is there a way I could have made it more pliable - longer/short/multiple rises, etc.?


    Glad the dough worked out for you. I'm not sure how the instant yeast affects dough pliability (maybe not at all). Definitely the bread flour affects (it's worse with the Vital Wheat Gluten). I've definitely found it helps to give the dough a little stretch, cover it with a towel, walk away for 5-10 minutes, stretch again...rinse, repeat...
    Also, try stretching the dough into a chunky oval, hold on to an edge and let gravity stretch the dough. Maybe some of the board's dough experts can chime in. I know Bill/SFNM has an awesome video on flipping the dough somewhere on this site (but I'm not that coordinated).
  • Post #14 - November 14th, 2011, 8:36 pm
    Post #14 - November 14th, 2011, 8:36 pm Post #14 - November 14th, 2011, 8:36 pm
    Couple of tips for stretching dough:

    - If the dough has been refrigerated or frozen , let it come up to room temp before stretching

    - I agree with Thaiobsessed: If the dough isn't stretching the way you want, let it rest. Never re-ball it. Gluten bonds will reform making it even harder to stretch out.

    - Try adding more water when first mixing the dough. Especially with wetter dough, less kneading will produce a tenderer dough that easier to handle.

    - Measure ingredients by weight. Once you find the perfect formula, it will be much more difficult to reproduce if you measure by volume.

    Here is a fun little video I made. You'll see how easy it is to slap out the dough around the 1 minute mark.

  • Post #15 - November 15th, 2011, 7:13 am
    Post #15 - November 15th, 2011, 7:13 am Post #15 - November 15th, 2011, 7:13 am
    First--and most important--beautiful, beautiful stuff.
    Second--and almost as important--loved that last shot, the way the camera pans into the slice.
    Third--and most important (oh why not?)--loved the soundtrack!

    Thanks for sharing the video.
    Gypsy Boy

    "I am not a glutton--I am an explorer of food." (Erma Bombeck)
  • Post #16 - November 15th, 2011, 8:59 am
    Post #16 - November 15th, 2011, 8:59 am Post #16 - November 15th, 2011, 8:59 am
    I've definitely found it helps to give the dough a little stretch, cover it with a towel, walk away for 5-10 minutes, stretch again...rinse, repeat...


    I may not be a "board expert" on dough, but I make bread and pizza quite a bit and if it takes 20-30 minutes to stretch the pizza dough, I think there's something not quite right with it. Compare to the dough stretching in the video above.
  • Post #17 - November 20th, 2011, 8:27 am
    Post #17 - November 20th, 2011, 8:27 am Post #17 - November 20th, 2011, 8:27 am
    rickster wrote:
    I've definitely found it helps to give the dough a little stretch, cover it with a towel, walk away for 5-10 minutes, stretch again...rinse, repeat...


    I may not be a "board expert" on dough, but I make bread and pizza quite a bit and if it takes 20-30 minutes to stretch the pizza dough, I think there's something not quite right with it. Compare to the dough stretching in the video above.


    I'll respectfully disagree but maybe that's because I wasn't clear about how I time it. I take the dough out of the fridge (ideally 2, but at least 1 hour before cooking) and put it on a floured Silpat. After the first 45 min or so, I pull it gently into an oval. Every so often, while I'm prepping the other ingredients, I give the pizza dough a little stretch. Here's a few pics.

    Out of the fridge
    Image

    Relaxed a bit on its own about 45 min later
    Image

    Holding it like a 'steering wheel' (usually a little gentler but I was holding it with one hand so I could take the picture). After this, I rotate it around with both hands, then set it down and go back to prepping other ingredients, then come back and re-stretch a little later. Sometimes I stretch it over the backs of my hands as well.
    Image

    Image

    Prepared pizza
    Image

    Ready to eat (unusual color of the crust is due to chili oil--this was a spicy pizza with hot italian sausage, sopressata, goat cheese, mozzarella, a little parm, and chile flakes.
    Image
  • Post #18 - November 20th, 2011, 9:23 am
    Post #18 - November 20th, 2011, 9:23 am Post #18 - November 20th, 2011, 9:23 am
    For those using metal peels, are they that much easier to work with when compared to wood?
  • Post #19 - November 20th, 2011, 9:25 am
    Post #19 - November 20th, 2011, 9:25 am Post #19 - November 20th, 2011, 9:25 am
    gastro gnome wrote:For those using metal peels, are they that much easier to work with when compared to wood?


    Honestly, I haven't noticed much of a difference. I like the longer handle though.
  • Post #20 - January 16th, 2022, 12:46 pm
    Post #20 - January 16th, 2022, 12:46 pm Post #20 - January 16th, 2022, 12:46 pm
    Help Your Pizza Dough Relax With Some Pineapple Juice

    ...
    Pineapples, kiwis, and papayas, in particular, contain powerful proteases—a class of enzymes that can break down proteins, including long strands of gluten. (That’s the stuff that gives your bread structure, but also what can make dough tough to work with.) The result, if a given enzyme is used in the correct proportions, is a dough that doesn’t angrily snap back when you stretch or roll it out (a quality that bakers call “extensibility”). For pizza, pretzel, and bagel recipes, having a relaxed dough is a real boon when you attempt to shape it.
    ...
    Cathy2

    "You'll be remembered long after you're dead if you make good gravy, mashed potatoes and biscuits." -- Nathalie Dupree
    Facebook, Twitter, Greater Midwest Foodways,
  • Post #21 - January 16th, 2022, 9:46 pm
    Post #21 - January 16th, 2022, 9:46 pm Post #21 - January 16th, 2022, 9:46 pm
    Interesting! As the article briefly hints without naming any brand names, and if you don't want to change your dough hydration level by adding juice, I suppose a pinch of Adolph's meat tenderizer would do the trick.
    "Your swimming suit matches your eyes, you hold your nose before diving, loving you has made me bananas!"

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