bweiny wrote:Nobody (ie. customers who might be inclined to complain) knows what capacity is for these stores. When did this alleged government mandate go into effect?

Last Friday = https://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/i ... s/2374615/

They can put any regulation into place, but if nobody's enforcing it, stores aren't going spend money to self-enforce. Stores are so large and the true legal capacity so much higher than what people would think it to be, 50% is not going to feel safe to anybody who worries about it. It'd be impossible for someone to even get an accurate count of the total people in the store to lend credence to a claim of violation. It makes it look like the state is trying to do something, but it's as hollow as can be in practice.

It'd be impossible for someone to even get an accurate count of the total people in the store to lend credence to a claim of violation.

Not disagreeing with your post as a whole, but I think it actually would be very easy to get an accurate occupancy count at any moment just by watching the doors and counting the number of people coming in and the number of people going out -- and then adding in the number of employees inside, assuming they count toward the 50% occupancy limit.

Katie wrote:actually would be very easy to get an accurate occupancy count at any moment just by watching the doors and counting the number of people coming in and the number of people going out -- and then adding in the number of employees inside, assuming they count toward the 50% occupancy limit.

Ha, math . . .

The only store that I have seen limiting shoppers has been Trader Joe's. No one else cares or should. Any mandate issued by the governor is just that a mandate. Not law.Not enforceable. If you don't want to go to a store with a lot of shoppers such as Niles then go to the golf road location or Market Place on Oakton.

I was at both Fresh Farms Niles and Whole Foods Sauganash today. I did not employ a door counter or pencil a quick zen diaphragm but to me Whole foods seemed the more crowded by far. This includes numerous WF workers scurrying about the store filling Thanksgiving orders and power Peloton moms on a mission.

Katie wrote:Not disagreeing with your post as a whole, but I think it actually would be very easy to get an accurate occupancy count at any moment just by watching the doors and counting the number of people coming in and the number of people going out -- and then adding in the number of employees inside, assuming they count toward the 50% occupancy limit.

But wouldn't you then be left with the unknown total of customers that were inside before you started controlling for change based on entrance/exit? That's the problem I see, never being able to establish the baseline customer count.

Trader Joe's does a good job of limiting the number of customers in the store. The Chicago Ave. Jewel for a while did limit customers too. I am not sure if they have gone back to doing that. They had somebody stationed at the front entrance making sure that people were wearing their mask, and counting the number of people that were going in and out of the store. They only have one entrance though, and so that makes it easier.

bweiny wrote:

Katie wrote:Not disagreeing with your post as a whole, but I think it actually would be very easy to get an accurate occupancy count at any moment just by watching the doors and counting the number of people coming in and the number of people going out -- and then adding in the number of employees inside, assuming they count toward the 50% occupancy limit.

But wouldn't you then be left with the unknown total of customers that were inside before you started controlling for change based on entrance/exit? That's the problem I see, never being able to establish the baseline customer count.

You seriously think it would be difficult at any time to get a baseline count within 3-5 ?

Grocery stores obviously are not going to follow the governor's orders. Baseline count is not the issue.

G Wiv wrote:I was at both Fresh Farms Niles and Whole Foods Sauganash today. I did not employ a door counter or pencil a quick zen diaphragm but to me Whole foods seemed the more crowded by far. This includes numerous WF workers scurrying about the store filling Thanksgiving orders and power Peloton moms on a mission.

Gary, we were doing the exact same circuit today, apparently.

I concur with your assessment about both places and how crowded each one felt.

I did start off the day stopping by the Clybourn Trader Joe's which did have a short line out the door. I decided to leave without waiting, but mostly because that lot is a nightmare when it is at or near occupancy and I just didn't want to deal with it.

I also echo the sentiment that TJ's has been the only store where I regularly see the capacity rule being enforced. I like to shop at off-peak hours, however (like a weeknight the last hour before closing or so) and as a result I may not have seen most of these places at times when they might be approaching the 50% capacity limit.

In the spirit of contributing an update more related to Fresh Farms' offerings, today I noticed that they have the same 12 lb King Arthur AP flour bag that Costco sells (only for $9.99 versus $5.99 at Costco). Still a decent deal if people need flour.

Also, they have started carrying more Tempesta products. In addition to 'nduja, they had sopprassatta (I think it was piccante, but I can't be sure), chorizo, tartufo, and I think sobrasada. I have begun baking pizzas during the pandemic so it is nice to know I have access to some of these products at a place I normally shop. To be fair, they have a LOT of other charcuterie on offer in addition to Tempesta.

I shop at the south loop Trader Joe's. And I don't think they ever went to 50% capacity. I think they have always been at 25%. To each his or her their own.

Public buildings have occupancy limits. Fire and police departments are empowered to enforce such limits. Grocery stores and other commercial establishments are well aware of what they need to do to abide by such limits. Just because you or I, Average Consumer, cannot walk into a store and take a look around and estimate the occupancy percentage with any reasonable degree of accuracy does not mean that the store does not know what its occupancy limit is and how to monitor it.

I don't know much about legal occupancy limits, but when I think of the limits that probably concern fire departments about overcrowding in the event of an urgent evacuation of a building on fire, or limits that concern building departments about potential structural collapse of an overloaded dance floor, let's say, on an above-ground floor of a building, I am inclined to guess that the occupancy limits are (a) very well defined on a usable square footage basis and (b) greater than what we might think of as just "crowded like the Wednesday before Thanksgiving" when we look at how many people we see in a grocery store.

Whether grocery stores and other types of stores in Illinois are bothering to comply with the pandemic-related reduced occupancy limits, I have no idea. I have noticed that lately the Menards and Walmart near me always seems to have someone at the entrance monitoring inflow, and we can safely say that the checkout lanes are automatically monitoring outflow. No one who shops at Costco will disagree that they are counting every person in and every person out. I wouldn't be surprised if some stores have motion-sensor-type monitoring at their in- and out-doors. You can dispute how much stores are actually bothering to monitor occupancy or how much they are displaying their ability to monitor occupancy or how much they are bothering to enforce reduced occupancy limits, but I suspect they are more capable of and responsible for monitoring it than you may be aware.

Similarly, I suspect the governor's emergency powers to restrict occupancy limits may be broader and more enforceable than some here realize.

bweiny wrote:

Katie wrote:Not disagreeing with your post as a whole, but I think it actually would be very easy to get an accurate occupancy count at any moment just by watching the doors and counting the number of people coming in and the number of people going out -- and then adding in the number of employees inside, assuming they count toward the 50% occupancy limit.

But wouldn't you then be left with the unknown total of customers that were inside before you started controlling for change based on entrance/exit? That's the problem I see, never being able to establish the baseline customer count.

I see what you're saying about getting an accurate count if you start at any arbitrary time, but to avoid that problem, how about if you started counting when you unlocked the doors in the morning?

Actually, even the other problem doesn't seem that problematic to me. Consider a grocery store with about a dozen aisles, some open areas on the perimeters for produce, deli, seafood, flowers, sushi, whatever, some checkout lines. How hard would it be, really, for an employee with a hand clicker to walk from one side of a grocery store to another and get a pretty good count in just a few minutes?

I was referring to the problem a customer would have in complaining that they were over x%, ie. # of people. If the store felt compelled to enforce it with accuracy, starting at opening is the obvious way for me. But the labor cost of having somebody at each entrance and exit all day is the deterrent.

I have not been there during busy times lately, but the Chicago Ave. Evanston store did have somebody there outside the store, to keep track of the number of people going in and out of the store, and to make sure that every one is wearing a mask. This is the only Jewel store I have seen them doing this. The Trader Joe's down the street also has somebody keeping track of the number of people, and they have somebody sanitizing carts. They have the best COVID protocols out of all of the stores.

It is easier with both of these stores because there is only one entrance. Both of the Howard Street Jewel stores have two entrances.

Returning to the products they stock.

We just recently made our first trip to this unknown (to us) gem at the Touhy location.

Produce selection is great- things like a wide variety of mushrooms, fairly priced. Potatoes seemed week with a small selections. Shallots, I had to buy a little package instead of just the one I needed, but the price was fair. I had a long list (Christmas dinner) and they had everything I needed. Deli was packed but the service was great - I decided to try their smoked ribs, which we reheated in the over with some sauce and they were great. The danger zone is right behind the deli - packed with sausages, prosciutto, cheeses, crackers (the biggest variety I've ever seen), etc. a lot went into our cart. The dairy aisle is endless, including a mind numbing variety of butters. I forgot to check if that have that amazing Icelandic chocolate what Whole Foods used to have before they were gutted by Amazon. Bakery needs work - waited a long time, ignored, for a loaf of bread and finally bought a pre-wrapped loaf. We wandered the various regional aisles and found lots of stuff we remembered from trips abroad - more in the cart. Right at checkout they had a huge pile of Milka bars, including the elusive Oreo, in not one but two styles, one crumbled like I'm used to in Europe and another with miniature Oreos on top. Made in Poland, IIRC. Went home with way more than we started out to buy. The only thing I couldn't find was Duck Fat - multiple people directed us to multiple places with an uncertain "maybe in ...", and the last person suggested "maybe frozen" with a vague wave toward the endless freezers. Since our need wasn't immediate and we were tired I gave up, I'm guessing it's there somewhere, but the store is indeed and laid out using some logic that doesn't click with mine.

Harrison poultry farm always has always had duck fat whenever I have asked.

Harrison Poultry Farm
1201 Waukegan Rd,
Glenview, IL 60025
(847) 724-0132
https://harrisonspoultryfarm.com/index.html