Pimp my cookies - what went "wrong"?

Hi all,

Been doing some cookie baking during the pandemic and unlike with other cooking, I'm a total neophyte. I don't have the baking experience or knowledge to understand how to adjust the inputs to achieve the desired outputs. Recently, I tried my hand at something that I figured would be very simple: chocolate chip cookies. I did some research and sussed out what I thought was the correct recipe and method for the kind of cookies I wanted to end up with. They look something like this . . .


Ideal Example: Crispy Chocolate Chip Cookie

However, what I ended up with was this . . .


Sad Reality: Chocolate Chip Cookies

Okay, it wasn't that sad because they really do taste great. But they're not quite right. They're more crunchy than crisp and have a somewhat sandy exterior texture. Happily, they're not fragile and can be handled without much breakage. But again, this is not what I wanted. My goal was thin, crispy, brown cookies. What I ended up with were taller-than-I-wanted, crunchy, beige cookies.

Some of the things I read that I thought would lead me to the desired result were:

Use room-temperature butter, no shortening
I used only room-temperature butter.

Use only granulated sugar, not brown sugar
I used only granulated sugar.

Bake cookies for a longer time at a lower temperature
~30 minutes @ 325F

Having pulled these levers and not gotten the results I wanted, I'm at a loss about how to proceed from here. I'd appreciate some direction/advice from anyone who's proficient/experienced with cookies. As much as I enjoy trial and error, that seems like an inefficient and wasteful approach, especially with it being so warm out and me being essentially clueless.

Reviewing what I did, here are some things that -- maybe -- could have gone wrong:

Maybe the 1-tablespoon cookies (I used a triggered scoop) were not the optimal size.
Maybe I had too many cookies on each baking sheet and they were too close together.
Maybe I used too much or too little baking soda.
Maybe I should have omitted the 1 teaspoon of vinegar the recipe called for.

Again, any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

=R=

What recipe did you use? Need to know that before a diagnoses can be made.

When you say room temperature butter, what do you mean? A baker's definition, which is about 67 degrees, I think, or a layman's definition, in that I left it out all night? Also, convection oven?

Here are three recipes that I found searching.
Tate's-Style Thin and Crispy Chocolate Chip Cookies Recipe
Alton Brown's The Thin
David Lebovitz's take on Joanne Chang's Chocolate Chip cookies

And, I'm old, so off to bed. I'll check back tomorrow.

Xexo wrote:What recipe did you use? Need to know that before a diagnoses can be made.

When you say room temperature butter, what do you mean? A baker's definition, which is about 67 degrees, I think, or a layman's definition, in that I left it out all night? Also, convection oven?

Here are three recipes that I found searching.
Tate's-Style Thin and Crispy Chocolate Chip Cookies Recipe
Alton Brown's The Thin
David Lebovitz's take on Joanne Chang's Chocolate Chip cookies

And, I'm old, so off to bed. I'll check back tomorrow.

Thanks, for the links. Butter left out all night, so very soft. Did not use convection (though, my oven has it). Here's a link to the recipe, and I followed the mods given below it for crispy cookies . . .

https://www.kingarthurflour.com/blog/20 ... hemistry-2

=R=

HI,

Looking at a comparative chart of chocolate cookies with various ingredient exchanges, I saw using cake flour (low protein) caused cookies to spread.

Are you using parchment or silicone mats? I have heard using silicone cake pans, the rise is not as good. It is possible silicone might suppress cookies spreading.

SeriousEats has a recipe for Tate's Style Thin and Crispy Chocolate Cookies using low protein flour, chilled butter, brown sugar and bakes on parchment.

Regards,
Cathy2

If you want to rid yourself of those shameful cookies....I know a guy

My wife is actually the ‘Cookie Expert’!
She uses half shortening and butter or all shortening.
I have made chocolate chip successfully following the recipe on the bag of Nestle Morsels.

https://www.verybestbaking.com/recipes/ ... cipePage=4

Your oven is also a variable and where in the oven you put the cookies matters because the heat distribution is not even. If making multiple sheet pans, you should switch locations half was through thru baking.
Your exact ingredients including flout type and brand would be nice to know.
I don’t know if you will get crispy commercial bagged crispness but you should be able to make very nice cookies at home.
-Richard

budrichard wrote:Your oven is also a variable and where in the oven you put the cookies matters because the heat distribution is not even. If making multiple sheet pans, you should switch locations half was through thru baking.

You could turn on the convection to avoid issues related to distribution of heat.

Regards,
Cathy2

ronnie_suburban wrote:mods given below it for crispy cookies . . .

Fuck it, buy a Famous Amos snack pack and be done with the baking brouhaha.

Cathy2 wrote:HI,

Looking at a comparative chart of chocolate cookies with various ingredient exchanges, I saw using cake flour (low protein) caused cookies to spread.

Are you using parchment or silicone mats? I have heard using silicone cake pans, the rise is not as good. It is possible silicone might suppress cookies spreading.

SeriousEats has a recipe for Tate's Style Thin and Crispy Chocolate Cookies using low protein flour, chilled butter, brown sugar and bakes on parchment.

I am using parchment. I suppose I could try cake flour but given how many recipes call for AP flour, that change seems like a last resort.

budrichard wrote:My wife is actually the ‘Cookie Expert’!
She uses half shortening and butter or all shortening.
I have made chocolate chip successfully following the recipe on the bag of Nestle Morsels.

https://www.verybestbaking.com/recipes/ ... cipePage=4

Your oven is also a variable and where in the oven you put the cookies matters because the heat distribution is not even. If making multiple sheet pans, you should switch locations half was through thru baking.
Your exact ingredients including flout type and brand would be nice to know.
I don’t know if you will get crispy commercial bagged crispness but you should be able to make very nice cookies at home.
-Richard

Yes, switched the positioning halfway through. And they're all about the same level of doneness, so I don't think heat distribution in the oven is an issue. I used King Arthur AP flour (12.7% protein), Domino/C&H granulated sugar, Arm & Hammer baking soda, Nielsen-Massey's Madagascar bourbon vanilla extract, Baleine fine sea salt, Callebaut chips (54.5% cocoa solids), Ellis Farm egg, Kerrygold Unsalted Butter (I am definitely focused on all-butter recipes).

Thanks,

=R=

ronnie_suburban wrote:

Cathy2 wrote:HI,

Looking at a comparative chart of chocolate cookies with various ingredient exchanges, I saw using cake flour (low protein) caused cookies to spread.

Are you using parchment or silicone mats? I have heard using silicone cake pans, the rise is not as good. It is possible silicone might suppress cookies spreading.

SeriousEats has a recipe for Tate's Style Thin and Crispy Chocolate Cookies using low protein flour, chilled butter, brown sugar and bakes on parchment.

I am using parchment. I suppose I could try cake flour but given how many recipes call for AP flour, that change seems like a last resort.

Not everyone wishes for the result you are seeking: a spreading thin cookie that is crisp.

Here is the chart I referred to.

Good luck!

Were they dense or light and airy. They look similar to a batch that I made years ago when I think I overwhipped the eggs, and they didnt spread out. Had almost a meringue like texture. I had a friend growing up whose mom wanted them that way and actually whipped the egg whites. They are quite good but not what you are looking for.

-Will

Ronnie.

I have two favorites to date, although I think you should try the Tate cookie on Serious Eats based on your preferred characteristics first.

One of my favorites is from Milk Street. It is a satisfying chocolate chip for grownups. I don't know why but you eat one and feel like wow that was delicious and you don't need to eat 12 more right behind it. It includes a smidge of rye. And rye is a favorite of mine. I do toast the rye. And the rye gets buttered which is interesting. I skip the nuts.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/life/foo ... 350783001/

The other is the Perfect Chocolate Chip Cookie from ATK. The butter is browned and it is glorious. The stir and rest is a thing but I do adore this cookie as well. Additionally, this one does include brown sugar.
And you only bake one tray at a time.

https://www.americastestkitchen.com/rec ... ip-cookies


It will be a good cookie, although I tend not to love crisp or chewy. I am also not the biggest lover of chocolate but both of these I adore.

Good Hunting!

Hi- I baked the Perfect Chocolate Chip Cookies at Christmas time, and every body in my family loved them, but they are not like what Ronnie is looking for.

Cathy2 wrote:Here is the chart I referred to.

Extremely useful. Thank you. Looking at those side-by-sides, cake flour may indeed be a key.

WillG wrote:Were they dense or light and airy. They look similar to a batch that I made years ago when I think I overwhipped the eggs, and they didnt spread out. Had almost a meringue like texture. I had a friend growing up whose mom wanted them that way and actually whipped the egg whites. They are quite good but not what you are looking for.

Light and airy. You may be onto something here. I don't think I overwhipped the egg (just one in this recipe) but I did give the butter a pretty thorough creaming before I added the egg. I'm also wondering what impact the vinegar might have had on these cookies. I know that when mixed with baking soda, the combination froths pretty heavily. Also, my understand is baking powder is for puff and baking soda -- used in this recipe -- is used for spread, so maybe I should have used more. If so, that would almost certainly indicate that I overcrowded my baking sheets.

pairs4life wrote:I have two favorites to date, although I think you should try the Tate cookie on Serious Eats based on your preferred characteristics first.

One of my favorites is from Milk Street. It is a satisfying chocolate chip for grownups. I don't know why but you eat one and feel like wow that was delicious and you don't need to eat 12 more right behind it. It includes a smidge of rye. And rye is a favorite of mine. I do toast the rye. And the rye gets buttered which is interesting. I skip the nuts.

https://www.jsonline.com/story/life/foo ... 350783001/

The other is the Perfect Chocolate Chip Cookie from ATK. The butter is browned and it is glorious. The stir and rest is a thing but I do adore this cookie as well. Additionally, this one does include brown sugar.
And you only bake one tray at a time.

https://www.americastestkitchen.com/rec ... ip-cookies

It will be a good cookie, although I tend not to love crisp or chewy. I am also not the biggest lover of chocolate but both of these I adore.

Good Hunting!

Excellent - thank you. I do like the overall profile of the Tates. These recipes both look promising for future forays. I generally love chocolate but more so on its own than incorporated into other foods. In fact, the Callebaut chips I used here, I actually bought long ago for eating straight up (but 1+ years later, there are still so many left). I'm not a big cookie lover, either. I think I like making them more than eating them but if I'm going make them, I might as well end up with something I really like.

I'm going to be giving this most recent batch away as aggressively as possible, so I can get on with the next one.

=R=

NFriday wrote:Hi- I baked the Perfect Chocolate Chip Cookies at Christmas time, and every body in my family loved them, but they are not like what Ronnie is looking for.

Yep. That's why I suggested he start w/ the Tate's recipe at Serious Eats.

Sometimes it helps to have other tested/vetted examples even if they lack your preferred characteristics as a guidepost. The KA cookie sounds like it hit none of the things Ronnie wanted.-- LLAP

pairs4life wrote:

NFriday wrote:Hi- I baked the Perfect Chocolate Chip Cookies at Christmas time, and every body in my family loved them, but they are not like what Ronnie is looking for.

Yep. That's why I suggested he start w/ the Tate's recipe at Serious Eats.

Sometimes it helps to have other tested/vetted examples even if they lack your preferred characteristics as a guidepost. The KA cookie sounds like it hit none of the things Ronnie wanted.-- LLAP

Thanks, to both of you. I very well may give the ATK recipe a try, just to establish a new baseline. Honestly, the KA recipe I tried was so far from the target, I'm probably better off with a new starting point. It's likely to be closer to what I want and even if it isn't a bullseye, hopefully, it'll be easier to adjust from there.

=R=

They dont look like overcrowding is the issue. While it looks like a couple had attached to each other, if overcrowding had stopped the spread, you would have had a solid pan of one giant cookie.

-Will

HI,

I think I will die of shock if you actually try the Tate recipe, which seems to tick off all your boxes. BTW - It is not a Kenji recipe, whom I like and you do not.

Regards,
Cathy2

There is a lot more knowledge already shared. I'll take this chance to share a recipe I recently made. They were really good.

https://smittenkitchen.com/2015/04/salt ... k-cookies/

I second the recommendation for (1) Stella Parks’s Serious Eats recipe — this one and others — and (2) ATK’s brown butter choco chip cookies (even though it’s a totally different style). Stella is awesome, and, imo, less likely to go down eccentric alleys than Kenji. Note also that she’s vocally against using any type of Euro butter for American baking recipes, so the Kerrygold may be a culprit in the disappointment of batch #1. May your further investigations prove fruitful.

Cathy2 wrote:I think I will die of shock if you actually try the Tate recipe, which seems to tick off all your boxes. BTW - It is not a Kenji recipe, whom I like and you do not.

I hope to try it. For store-bought, Tate's are about as good as they get, imo. The texture is excellent and the butter flavor really comes through.

The GP wrote:There is a lot more knowledge already shared. I'll take this chance to share a recipe I recently made. They were really good.

https://smittenkitchen.com/2015/04/salt ... k-cookies/

Well, these look positively awesome. I'm not sure I'm at a high enough level to pull them off just yet. A future goal though, for sure.

Bok Choy Jr wrote:I second the recommendation for (1) Stella Parks’s Serious Eats recipe — this one and others — and (2) ATK’s brown butter choco chip cookies (even though it’s a totally different style). Stella is awesome, and, imo, less likely to go down eccentric alleys than Kenji. Note also that she’s vocally against using any type of Euro butter for American baking recipes, so the Kerrygold may be a culprit in the disappointment of batch #1. May your further investigations prove fruitful.

Thank you! A lot of roads lead to the ATK recipe. That will almost certainly be my next attempt.

The butter information is absolutely intriguing because in their unaltered forms, the styles are so obviously different from each other in texture and elasticity. It makes sense that they might behave differently when incorporated into a baked recipe. I have some 365 brand in the freezer and I will give it a whirl in the very near future.

=R=

I didn't look at the Serious Eats recipe but Stella Parks is now my new favorite for pie crust. And I keep a stack of Costco butter for those. It works incredibly well for both savory and sweet pies.

I would suggest checking out Brave Tart's take on Tates. She has an entire book she did with her takes on a lot of manufactured mid-20th century American cookies and sweets.

And her sweet potato pie is my new favorite. She frakking cooks the potatoes in the cream, sugar, and spices. It's a crazy long time to make the filling and crazy delicious. Basically a sweet potato dulce as she calls it. https://www.saveur.com/bravetart-stella ... ok-review/

Okay, I made one batch of cookies this evening. Alton Brown's The Thin

And here is how they turned out.




I'll be making Tate's-Style Thin and Crispy Chocolate Chip Cookies and Thin, Crisp Chocolate Chip Cookies by David Lebovitz tomorrow. I'll post those pictures as well.

Xexo wrote:And here is how they turned out.

Are you actually in Salem Oregon? That's the only way I'm not coming over to your house for a couple of those cookies.

XEXO, those are seriously good looking cookies!

For the record, I use Land o Lakes unsalted butter, the aforementioned KA AP and Crisco shortening.
No vinegar. Yes, combining an acid with a Base does yield CO2 but I don’t think a level of frothiness is required.
As to Convection, it will not even your oven temps just raise them due to supplying increased air flow for better gas burning.
With the convection on the gas Viking and the lowest level, it’s crispy critters if not monitored closely.
Like many things, it’s a journey with a generally happy ending.
-Richard

Vinegar? I don’t think I’ve ever made cookies with vinegar. Is this a common thing?

chicagojim wrote:Vinegar? I don’t think I’ve ever made cookies with vinegar. Is this a common thing?

If you are using baking soda, there is a need for an acid to interact. It will create the rise.

If an acid was not present to interact with the baking soda, your product will have a chemical taste and will be flatter.

Double acting baking powder has baking soda and acids that dissolve immediately and another that reacts when heated.

The vinegar-baking soda is from cookies from another era when baking powder was not available.

I have an old cake recipe using baking soda and vinegar for the rise. You have your pans prepared and the oven preheated, before you mix the batter. Once mixed, you get it in the oven asap.

Regards,
Cathy2

G Wiv wrote:

Xexo wrote:And here is how they turned out.

Are you actually in Salem Oregon? That's the only way I'm not coming over to your house for a couple of those cookies.

Yes, yes I am in Salem Oregon. Was that I faux pas on my part to list it? I would totally share with you! I'm going to have to send the cookies to work with my neighbor. I'll have way to many for me. And back at ya on your postings in the Corona Virus cooking thread.

budrichard wrote:XEXO, those are seriously good looking cookies!...As to Convection, it will not even your oven temps just raise them due to supplying increased air flow for better gas burning....

Thank you. At Mrs. Fields Cookies, the convection ovens were set at 295, if I remember correctly, it has been almost 40 years.

chicagojim wrote:Vinegar? I don’t think I’ve ever made cookies with vinegar. Is this a common thing?

The cookie recipe Ronnie tried did list vinegar as an ingredient. That is the first cookie recipe I've ever seen that has vinegar as an ingredient.

Xexo wrote: I'm going to have to send the cookies to work with my neighbor. I'll have way to many for me. And back at ya on your postings in the Corona Virus cooking thread.
.

You can also freeze your baked cookies and eat them later if you aren't feeling so beneficent with your lovely bakes.

Xexo wrote:

chicagojim wrote:Vinegar? I don’t think I’ve ever made cookies with vinegar. Is this a common thing?

The cookie recipe Ronnie tried did list vinegar as an ingredient. That is the first cookie recipe I've ever seen that has vinegar as an ingredient.

I've seen vinegar in pie crusts before but never in cookie recipes. But again, I'm not very familiar with cookie culture. Speaking of which, why isn't it spelled cooky? Makes no sense whatsoever.

In any case, King Arthur has been pretty reliable in the past for recipes but this one was a disappointment. They're in the doghouse until further notice.

=R=