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ISO pickling guidance - after the pickling

ISO pickling guidance - after the pickling
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  • Post #31 - July 18th, 2020, 2:20 am
    Post #31 - July 18th, 2020, 2:20 am Post #31 - July 18th, 2020, 2:20 am
    JoelF wrote:
    budrichard wrote:Tell me more about Vietnamese pickled mustard greens, I've got a bumper crop right now that if I don't find something else, will be blanched and frozen this weekend.


    I have a couple of packages of pickled mustard greens in my pantry right now awaiting the day that I can head to the Asian market and get some pork neck bones for a pot of pho. The mustard greens are very sour and they add another texture and flavor dimension to various Asian soup dishes. What surprised me about the greens is that the sourness did NOT adversely affect the flavor of the soup. The only time that you taste them is when you eat the greens in the soup.

    If you use the packages greens, I would rinse them off before use.

    Too many mustard greens? That is a problem I wish that I had. I have ordered bunches of greens in weeks past and the quantity that I get is so small that it is not worth it.
  • Post #32 - July 18th, 2020, 5:14 am
    Post #32 - July 18th, 2020, 5:14 am Post #32 - July 18th, 2020, 5:14 am
    Xexo wrote:
    budrichard wrote:BTW found this.
    http://humblehouse.co/water-seal-fermen ... mason-jar/
    ...
    -Richard

    My neighbor has one of these and she doesn't like it much. Unlike the one pictured on Wikipedia, the water seal part, cuts off a couple of inches across the top of the crock, so she can't put larger things in it. Like whole cabbage. Yes, she likes to do whole head cabbage pickling.

    The one pictured on Wikipedia has the water seal part of the crock flare out from the crock body, so it would appear that larger things could go into the crock.

    Me, well I'm not fond of pickled things, so it doesn't much matter to me. So Cathy is safe from me trying to talk her out of her b&b pickles. :wink:


    The opening on my 20l Harsch is 11&1/4”. Just about large enough for a small head of supermarket cabbage.
    Most of get our cabbage in Somers at Gitzlaff Farms on Hwy E. Their cabbages are commercial and a whole one will definitely not fit in a Harsch crock.
    -Richard
  • Post #33 - July 18th, 2020, 5:20 am
    Post #33 - July 18th, 2020, 5:20 am Post #33 - July 18th, 2020, 5:20 am
    JoelF wrote:
    budrichard wrote:He does a lot of small batch with them.
    I use it primarily to ferment mustard greens for Vietnamese recipes.

    Tell me more about Vietnamese pickled mustard greens, I've got a bumper crop right now that if I don't find something else, will be blanched and frozen this weekend.


    Very simple, it is salt cured product, you will need some sort of fermenting equipment we have been discussing and some time. Recipes are available.
    Then you use it as a vegetable additive. Rabbit with mustard greens comes to mind from a Vietnamese restaurant.
  • Post #34 - July 18th, 2020, 8:47 pm
    Post #34 - July 18th, 2020, 8:47 pm Post #34 - July 18th, 2020, 8:47 pm
    budrichard wrote:
    JoelF wrote:
    budrichard wrote:He does a lot of small batch with them.
    I use it primarily to ferment mustard greens for Vietnamese recipes.

    Tell me more about Vietnamese pickled mustard greens, I've got a bumper crop right now that if I don't find something else, will be blanched and frozen this weekend.


    Very simple, it is salt cured product, you will need some sort of fermenting equipment we have been discussing and some time. Recipes are available.
    Then you use it as a vegetable additive. Rabbit with mustard greens comes to mind from a Vietnamese restaurant.

    I found some recipes that are basic feeling pickling brine. Not the same?
    What is patriotism, but the love of good things we ate in our childhood?
    -- Lin Yutang
  • Post #35 - July 19th, 2020, 12:01 am
    Post #35 - July 19th, 2020, 12:01 am Post #35 - July 19th, 2020, 12:01 am
    I've got numerous fermentation/pickling projects going on right now. This one is about a week old. I received some larger pickling cucumbers and figured the only way I'd eat them is if I pickled them. And being a pickling neophyte, I could use the practice. But there were only a few -- not nearly enough for even one of my smaller pickling crocks, so I decided to have a go at them in this half-gallon Ball jar.

    As luck would have it, the jar is narrow enough that I was able to wedge one of the cukes across it horizontally to keep it and all the other cukes submerged in the brine. I've been storing the jar out of direct sunlight and keeping it covered with a piece of cheesecloth secured with a rubber band. Today I figured it was time to check the surface . . .

    Image
    Large Cucumbers, Day 7
    5% salt solution, smashed garlic cloves, flowering dill fronds (just a couple), black peppercorns and 1 large horseradish leaf.

    Image
    Gunky Layer
    I thought I was going to have to scoop this out carefully, so I was surprised when I went to spoon it out and realized it was one, semi-solid piece, almost like a raft. Sorry about the threads (probably strays from the cheesecloth) on my lens.

    Image
    Gunk, removed
    There were a few garlic skins, one partial garlic clove and some other business in the mass. I rinsed off the garlic clove and put it back in the jar. The rest I discarded. Because these are pretty big cucumbers and there isn't a huge volume of brining liquid in the jar, I plan letting these go for one more week. But I'll now be checking them for surface gunk daily.

    =R=
    By protecting others, you save yourself. If you only think of yourself, you'll only destroy yourself. --Kambei Shimada

    Every human interaction is an opportunity for disappointment --RS

    There's a horse loose in a hospital --JM

    That don't impress me much --Shania Twain
  • Post #36 - July 19th, 2020, 6:00 am
    Post #36 - July 19th, 2020, 6:00 am Post #36 - July 19th, 2020, 6:00 am
    JoelF wrote:
    budrichard wrote:
    JoelF wrote:
    budrichard wrote:He does a lot of small batch with them.
    I use it primarily to ferment mustard greens for Vietnamese recipes.

    Tell me more about Vietnamese pickled mustard greens, I've got a bumper crop right now that if I don't find something else, will be blanched and frozen this weekend.


    Very simple, it is salt cured product, you will need some sort of fermenting equipment we have been discussing and some time. Recipes are available.
    Then you use it as a vegetable additive. Rabbit with mustard greens comes to mind from a Vietnamese restaurant.

    I found some recipes that are basic feeling pickling brine. Not the same?


    Should be the same.
    As I understand it, there are two basic types of pickling, a salt brine and a salt/vinegar/water brine for water bath canned pickles.
    I do both, crock type are usually salt based with sauer kraut producing it’s own brine by the process of the salt drawing the water out of cabbage.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickling
    Pressure canning is for low acid foods to prevent botulism.
    For most canning you want to follow a USDA or State AG approved recipe.
    Recipes have changed over the years and you want to make sure your recipe is up to date.
  • Post #37 - July 19th, 2020, 11:41 pm
    Post #37 - July 19th, 2020, 11:41 pm Post #37 - July 19th, 2020, 11:41 pm
    As I mentioned above, I've been doing quite a bit of pickling lately. This week I received just over 3 pounds of small pickling cucumbers -- and a nice bunch of fresh, flowering dill -- and decided to ferment some dill pickles. This is a variation on a Linda Ziedrich recipe from The Joy of Pickling . . .

    Image
    Wash And Trim
    I've read that it's the blossom ends that should be trimmed but I took a bunch of the more gnarly stem ends off, too.

    Image
    5-Liter Pickling Crock
    I *had* to have one (and a couple of others). I bought it and it sat unused for years. Now, with the pandemic upon us, it's finally being put through its paces.

    Image
    In The Crock
    As I learned the hard way, cucumbers go in first. This is probably obvious to bright people but it wasn't obvious to me. 8-) This was just about the perfect amount of cucumbers for this particular crock.

    Image
    Seasoning Components
    Whole black peppercorns, coriander seeds (both coarsely cracked before use), bay leaves, 1 head of garlic- cloves separated (smashed before adding), fresh dill, horseradish leaves, Fresno chiles (later slitted) and mustard seed (already cracked) and pickling salt. I used a 5% salt brine, so about 236g of salt and 1.25 gallons of water. After the salt dissolved, I added most of the seasoning components to the brine, though I did hold back some of them, so I could put them directly next to the cucumbers. As my wizened pickling friends have advised, use flowering dill if I it's avaialable. As it turned out, some of the dill I had was flowering, so that's what I used. I love dill pickles but I've learned that a little dill goes a long way. Hopefully, the horseradish leaves will do what their purported to and help keep the pickles crisp and crunchy.

    Image
    All In
    Well, everything but the brine. But before that could be added, I had to place the weights.

    Image
    Weights Placed
    Still LOL'ing @ myself - *this* is why the cucumbers go in first! Otherwise, those babies bob all over the place while you try to get these weights on top of them. But placed in the crock before the brine, these plates effortlessly help hold everything down after the brine is added. They're not infallible, though. In another project I have going right now, items have occasionally floated up around the plates, so they'll have to be checked regularly. I may have to eventually go with the ziploc bag method to keep everything submerged, if I get a lot of float-up. These are pretty small cucumbers, so they should take no more than a week to 10 days to fully ferment. During that time, I'll be checking them daily and skimming any yeast, mold. etc, off the top of the crock.

    =R=
    By protecting others, you save yourself. If you only think of yourself, you'll only destroy yourself. --Kambei Shimada

    Every human interaction is an opportunity for disappointment --RS

    There's a horse loose in a hospital --JM

    That don't impress me much --Shania Twain
  • Post #38 - July 20th, 2020, 2:17 am
    Post #38 - July 20th, 2020, 2:17 am Post #38 - July 20th, 2020, 2:17 am
    Where is the ‘top’ of the crock?
    Put the top on and fill the annulus with water.
    Don’t open for a couple if weeks.
    No scum.
    -Richard
  • Post #39 - July 23rd, 2020, 11:32 am
    Post #39 - July 23rd, 2020, 11:32 am Post #39 - July 23rd, 2020, 11:32 am
    budrichard wrote:Where is the ‘top’ of the crock?

    Wait? The top isn't purely decorative? :lol:

    Yes, the lid is on . . .

    Image
    Lidded Pickling Crock

    And I think I have it filled up enough . . .

    Image
    Cucumbers Pickling in Crock

    What little you see floating on top appears to be ground mustard seed. I'll do my best not to keep opening it and looking at them. But for now, we wait . . .

    =R=
    By protecting others, you save yourself. If you only think of yourself, you'll only destroy yourself. --Kambei Shimada

    Every human interaction is an opportunity for disappointment --RS

    There's a horse loose in a hospital --JM

    That don't impress me much --Shania Twain
  • Post #40 - July 23rd, 2020, 11:41 am
    Post #40 - July 23rd, 2020, 11:41 am Post #40 - July 23rd, 2020, 11:41 am
    My cucumbers are starting to come up, and there will probably be a lot. I don't think they are labeled "pickling", but can I try to pickle them anyway? :?
  • Post #41 - July 23rd, 2020, 11:47 am
    Post #41 - July 23rd, 2020, 11:47 am Post #41 - July 23rd, 2020, 11:47 am
    HonestMan wrote:My cucumbers are starting to come up, and there will probably be a lot. I don't think they are labeled "pickling", but can I try to pickle them anyway? :?

    Absolutely. All it will basically cost you is salt and time.

    =R=
    By protecting others, you save yourself. If you only think of yourself, you'll only destroy yourself. --Kambei Shimada

    Every human interaction is an opportunity for disappointment --RS

    There's a horse loose in a hospital --JM

    That don't impress me much --Shania Twain
  • Post #42 - July 23rd, 2020, 11:50 am
    Post #42 - July 23rd, 2020, 11:50 am Post #42 - July 23rd, 2020, 11:50 am
    HonestMan wrote:My cucumbers are starting to come up, and there will probably be a lot. I don't think they are labeled "pickling", but can I try to pickle them anyway? :?


    If they're good enough to eat, they're good enough to pickle. I slice the seedless English cukes into leftover pickle brine (with cider vinegar added to maintain acidity) all the time. Also do it with zucchini ribbons, sliced onions, slivered carrots - whatever.
  • Post #43 - July 23rd, 2020, 11:59 am
    Post #43 - July 23rd, 2020, 11:59 am Post #43 - July 23rd, 2020, 11:59 am
    I have a smaller (1/2 gallon) version of what looks like the same crock as Ronnie, called sauerkrock. The instructions that came with it said not to fill the crock more than 3/4 full. The water canal is filled to stop air circulation, but obviously if it is 1/4 empty, there is already air in there. Ronnie filled his to the top. Which is correct or maybe it doesnt really matter.

    -Will
  • Post #44 - July 23rd, 2020, 12:19 pm
    Post #44 - July 23rd, 2020, 12:19 pm Post #44 - July 23rd, 2020, 12:19 pm
    WillG wrote:I have a smaller (1/2 gallon) version of what looks like the same crock as Ronnie, called sauerkrock. The instructions that came with it said not to fill the crock more than 3/4 full. The water canal is filled to stop air circulation, but obviously if it is 1/4 empty, there is already air in there. Ronnie filled his to the top. Which is correct or maybe it doesnt really matter.

    Your guess is as good as mine (or better). I'm just gleaning info from others here on the thread and the internet in general.

    =R=
    By protecting others, you save yourself. If you only think of yourself, you'll only destroy yourself. --Kambei Shimada

    Every human interaction is an opportunity for disappointment --RS

    There's a horse loose in a hospital --JM

    That don't impress me much --Shania Twain
  • Post #45 - July 23rd, 2020, 12:21 pm
    Post #45 - July 23rd, 2020, 12:21 pm Post #45 - July 23rd, 2020, 12:21 pm
    ronnie_suburban wrote:Used to see this all the time in delis, etc. Self-service pickle barrels on the floor in the storefront. I guess they're still around. Is there anything short of refrigeration that would prevent additional gunk from continuing to form on the surface, or is removing that a perpetual task?

    Well, you could do what the producers of the pickles and sauerkraut found in those self-service barrels do: add sodium benzoate and/or other preservatives. Refrigeration is clearly the way to go for short-term storage.

    budrichard wrote:Now that Bobak’s store is gone, Andy’s Deli has pickle, kraut and herring barrels, harking back to stores’ 60 years ago.

    At many delis the tall "barrel" holds a shallow bowl that gets filled from large plastic shipping containers to give the illusion of a wooden barrel full of pickles and brine. Bobak's sauerkraut (and likely their pickles as well) came in big plastic tubs from Stanmark, a local company that supplies many delis, and was preserved with sodium benzoate and sodium bisulfite.

    Image

    People love selecting their own pickles from a wooden barrel, even if it's only a marketing prop. Anyone know of any delis currently fermenting their own pickles and selling them without preservatives? We had a similar discussion before about sauerkraut.

    budrichard wrote:As to scum on pickling containers, a Harsch type crock with a water seal works quite well.
    Harsch is defunct but there is another supplier on the market available from Germany
    https://www.amazon.com/harsch-crock/s?k=harsch+crock

    The German crocks are great, but very expensive. For anyone interested, similar crocks are available locally at somewhat more reasonable prices. Check Polish markets (eg, Shop & Save on Archer, in the liquor department) or Korean markets (eg, Joong Boo on Kimball, in housewares).

    budrichard wrote:The typical crock sold in the US using a plate for a seal, of course ends up with mung on the top.
    With a water seal, all you do is keep the annulus full of water and the CO2 generated by fermentation bubbles through the water and O2 is eliminated.
    We do kraut and last year did 30 liters in our 10 and 20 l Harsch crocks.
    No mung what so ever.

    A much less expensive solution is to use a fermentation airlock, usually used for home brewing. You shouldn't have to pay more than a few dollars for one. You'll need to figure out a way to fit it onto your fermentation vessel, but you can find lots of ideas online.

    For those unfamiliar with fermentation airlocks – either the circular water-filled moats in ceramic crocks or external ones (there are two basic designs) – it’s simply a device that keeps out oxygen and thus minimizes growth of undesirable organisms. The fermenting bacteria don’t need oxygen, but most of the undesirable fungi (‘gunk’ or ‘mung’) require it. Fermentation locks function as one-way valves that allow the carbon dioxide produced during fermentation to bubble out, but don't let air in. The fermentation thus proceeds in an atmosphere of carbon dioxide – ideal for the desirable lactic acid bacteria but inhospitable to most of the undesirable microbes. A liquid-filled plastic bag on top of the vessel's contents can also keep oxygen out, but usually not as effectively. External locks have the advantage that you can easily monitor fermentation rate by noting the frequency of bubbles. When bubbling stops, fermentation is finished.

    ronnie_suburban wrote:I've been storing the jar out of direct sunlight and keeping it covered with a piece of cheesecloth secured with a rubber band.

    You would almost certainly have less problem with gunk if you took measures to exclude oxygen. If you don't want to use a fermentation lock, simply screwing on a lid with a pinhole vent might help reduce the amount of oxygen – and so the amount of fungus growth – in the vessel. It's not a very efficient airlock, but during active fermentation the pressure of the carbon dioxide will result in one-way flow. Covering the mouth with cheesecloth almost guarantees abundant gunk.
  • Post #46 - July 23rd, 2020, 12:40 pm
    Post #46 - July 23rd, 2020, 12:40 pm Post #46 - July 23rd, 2020, 12:40 pm
    HonestMan wrote
    My cucumbers are starting to come up, and there will probably be a lot. I don't think they are labeled "pickling", but can I try to pickle them anyway?

    Pickling cucumbers have small black spines while slicing cukes have white sort-of spines. White spine cucumbers can be pickled, but the seed cavity will pretty much collapse leaving hollow center. The bigger problem is that white-spine cucumbers develop seeds at a much earlier stage than black-spine cucumbers.
  • Post #47 - July 23rd, 2020, 12:47 pm
    Post #47 - July 23rd, 2020, 12:47 pm Post #47 - July 23rd, 2020, 12:47 pm
    Rene G wrote:You would almost certainly have less problem with gunk if you took measures to exclude oxygen. If you don't want to use a fermentation lock, simply screwing on a lid with a pinhole vent might help reduce the amount of oxygen – and so the amount of fungus growth – in the vessel. It's not a very efficient airlock, but during active fermentation the pressure of the carbon dioxide will result in one-way flow. Covering the mouth with cheesecloth almost guarantees abundant gunk.

    Ok, thanks. While gunk hasn't been much of a problem with the Ball jar batch, it'll be easy enough to change the lidding. The cheesecloth method was suggested by a couple of online sources. I can easily make this adjustment.

    Thank you!

    =R=
    By protecting others, you save yourself. If you only think of yourself, you'll only destroy yourself. --Kambei Shimada

    Every human interaction is an opportunity for disappointment --RS

    There's a horse loose in a hospital --JM

    That don't impress me much --Shania Twain
  • Post #48 - July 24th, 2020, 2:49 am
    Post #48 - July 24th, 2020, 2:49 am Post #48 - July 24th, 2020, 2:49 am
    ronnie_suburban wrote:
    budrichard wrote:Where is the ‘top’ of the crock?

    Wait? The top isn't purely decorative? :lol:

    Yes, the lid is on . . .

    Image
    Lidded Pickling Crock

    And I think I have it filled up enough . . .

    Image
    Cucumbers Pickling in Crock

    What little you see floating on top appears to be ground mustard seed. I'll do my best not to keep opening it and looking at them. But for now, we wait . . .

    =R=


    Pot the top ON and FILL the annulus with WATER!
    The top is NOT decorative!
    DON’T OPEN.
    Problem SOLVED!
  • Post #49 - July 24th, 2020, 2:53 am
    Post #49 - July 24th, 2020, 2:53 am Post #49 - July 24th, 2020, 2:53 am
    ronnie_suburban wrote:
    WillG wrote:I have a smaller (1/2 gallon) version of what looks like the same crock as Ronnie, called sauerkrock. The instructions that came with it said not to fill the crock more than 3/4 full. The water canal is filled to stop air circulation, but obviously if it is 1/4 empty, there is already air in there. Ronnie filled his to the top. Which is correct or maybe it doesnt really matter.

    Your guess is as good as mine (or better). I'm just gleaning info from others here on the thread and the internet in general.

    =R=

    As long as the weights keep the produce below the brine level and you don’t keep opening the lid, you are good to go! A CO2 atmosphere builds up in the crock as oxygen is displaced.
  • Post #50 - August 1st, 2020, 8:02 pm
    Post #50 - August 1st, 2020, 8:02 pm Post #50 - August 1st, 2020, 8:02 pm
    Day 14 and they're done . . .

    Image
    Jarred Russian Dills

    Image
    Russian Dills, Hot Pepper & Garlic

    I'm very pleased with the outcome. Flavor is great, with perfect amounts of dill and garlic, low-moderate heat, bold fermentation and crunchy texture. I made a spicy Virgin Mary this afternoon, just because it seemed like the perfect use for some of the extra pickle juice. :)

    =R=
    By protecting others, you save yourself. If you only think of yourself, you'll only destroy yourself. --Kambei Shimada

    Every human interaction is an opportunity for disappointment --RS

    There's a horse loose in a hospital --JM

    That don't impress me much --Shania Twain
  • Post #51 - August 1st, 2020, 10:09 pm
    Post #51 - August 1st, 2020, 10:09 pm Post #51 - August 1st, 2020, 10:09 pm
    Rene G wrote:You would almost certainly have less problem with gunk if you took measures to exclude oxygen. If you don't want to use a fermentation lock, simply screwing on a lid with a pinhole vent might help reduce the amount of oxygen – and so the amount of fungus growth – in the vessel. It's not a very efficient airlock, but during active fermentation the pressure of the carbon dioxide will result in one-way flow. Covering the mouth with cheesecloth almost guarantees abundant gunk.


    A balloon will do in a pinch, too, as an airlock.
    Leek

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    but it CHANGES THE WORLD for that one dog.
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  • Post #52 - August 1st, 2020, 10:18 pm
    Post #52 - August 1st, 2020, 10:18 pm Post #52 - August 1st, 2020, 10:18 pm
    My neighbor would just "burp" the jars every day or two.
    The thing about quotes on the internet is you can not confirm their validity. -- Abraham Lincoln
  • Post #53 - August 1st, 2020, 11:09 pm
    Post #53 - August 1st, 2020, 11:09 pm Post #53 - August 1st, 2020, 11:09 pm
    My crock came with weights and this time around, they worked out very well. The key was not only keeping the crock filled to the rim but also letting a bit of brine rest in the outer channel of the crock, so that the edges of lid were constantly submerged. It seemed that doing this created an ideal, one-way seal.

    A little schmutz formed at the very top but with the brine as high as it was, removing it was a breeze. And after I removed it, I refilled the vessel using more brine. Food-safe balloons and brine-filled zipper bags seem like they'd make suitable barriers, too but in the end, keeping the brine level up to the rim of the vessel was paramount.

    In a non-brine fermentation -- like with sauerkraut, for example -- what is the best approach?

    =R=
    By protecting others, you save yourself. If you only think of yourself, you'll only destroy yourself. --Kambei Shimada

    Every human interaction is an opportunity for disappointment --RS

    There's a horse loose in a hospital --JM

    That don't impress me much --Shania Twain
  • Post #54 - August 2nd, 2020, 5:10 am
    Post #54 - August 2nd, 2020, 5:10 am Post #54 - August 2nd, 2020, 5:10 am
    “ In a non-brine fermentation -- like with sauerkraut, for example -- what is the best approach?”

    Since kraut makes it’s own brine, make sure you have compacted the cabbage and salt until brine form and then put into crock. A stout wooden tamper suffices.
    Fill the crock until you can just fit in the weights into the crock and brine should just cover the kraut and weights, if not add salted water. There is no need to fill the crock up to the top, just about the weights as the CO2 atmosphere developed eliminates scum.
    Fill the annulus with plain water and assure that it stays full.
    Don’t open the crock until you think the kraut is ready based on the temperature of the crock.
    I got pickles, garlic, jalapeños and dill heads from one of my farmer friends late yesterday.
    We were at Road America and had stopped at the St Paul Fish House in Mequon on the way back for softshells. Hot tired, cleaned the softshells and ate.
    The pickles et al are in a cooler and will go into the 20l Harsch crock today.
    A simple brine will cover.
    Then the wait begins.
    -Richard
  • Post #55 - August 3rd, 2020, 12:12 pm
    Post #55 - August 3rd, 2020, 12:12 pm Post #55 - August 3rd, 2020, 12:12 pm
    Well, last week or so ago, I got around to pickling some beets for beet kvass:

    Image

    Image

    This stuff is so ridiculously purple. I think you have to have a bit of a Central/Eastern European bent to truly appreciate it. Drink it chilled for some nice probiotics, with a kick of garlic, lactic acid, flowering dill (in my version), and beets.

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