thetrob wrote:If a place like the Elysian or upscale restaurants are trying to reduce the burden on their customers to constantly worry about who to tip and how much by having a "no-tip" policy, why not just make the resturants "no-tip" and roll the amount into the cost of the food. Make the $20 entree $24, the $2 Coke $2.50 and so on, and post a no-tipping policy in the restaurant.

It doesn't even have to be an upscale restaurant. Manny's has been successfully adding in a little something for the people who bus the tables and serve the food for decades. They just don't tell you...and no one has ever complained (to my knowledge).

thetrob wrote:In general the Automatic Tip has always bothered me, regardless of whether it is at an upscale restaurant, or the everyday places that add gratuities for parties of 6 or more.

I strongly support the places that add automatic gratuities for larger parties. Here's why.

I've been out with large groups of people many times in my life. Sometimes it's an intimate gathering of three couples who know each other well, but other times it's just a big group, such as when a work group goes out for lunch or dinner. Too often, what happens in the latter case is that the check is passed around, and everyone puts in what he/she thinks is his/her portion of the check. And in my experience, over half the time, the total comes up significantly short of what would be a fair tip. (My best guess as to why is not that people deliberately chip in less than they should, but rather, they think of their entree but they forget about the glass of wine or cup of coffee, or they forget about or miscalculate the tax or tip.) And when I've seen that happen, there is then a choice between several unpleasant and unfair or embarrassing options: adding in more than my own share to keep the staff from being shortchanged, trying to check back on a bunch of people's orders to see who shorted their contribution, or letting it go with a tip that's inadequate. I'm sure that many times, the staff gets shorted as a result.

So I'm sorry if you don't like the policy of automatic tips for larger parties, but I think it's the fairest and best way of avoiding such situations.

thetrob wrote:If a place like the Elysian or upscale restaurants are trying to reduce the burden on their customers to constantly worry about who to tip and how much by having a "no-tip" policy, why not just make the resturants "no-tip" and roll the amount into the cost of the food. Make the $20 entree $24, the $2 Coke $2.50 and so on, and post a no-tipping policy in the restaurant.

On one hand, I like this idea. (There are actually countries in which tipping is not done and is even considered rude, such as Japan.) However, the problem with that is that many people are inevitably going to evaluate prices in comparison with other restaurants with the conventional tipping policy. The $48 lobster entree suddenly becomes a $58 entree, which makes it then sound like it's among the highest entree prices in Chicago. So I can see why they would not go that route.

nsxtasy, I see your points in regards to large gatherings and also how the added amounts would make the prices seem extreme if compared to other establishments where a tip was not added in.

In the case of added amounts, I think that most people would understand what the added charge is for, if the service was consistently excellent. I also think that people who dine at the better eating establishments accept the higher prices as the cost of better food and service. For example I can get an order of spaghetti and meatballs from a neighborhood favorite for $9.95, while the same entree at another place that is maybe a little better or the decor more fancy is $13.95. Does it seem pricier for basically the same plate of food, sure it does, but I think most understand why. Yes, a large ticket item like a lobster or steak would skew the total to maybe look a little shocking.

I can see your point with a large party where everyone is putting in "their" portion. I've been there and done that, and I am usually the one at the end paying out of my pocket to make sure the server does not get shorted. I also understand that an extremely large group becomes difficult not only for the wait staff, but also the kitchen in trying to get 12 dinners out to the table at the same time (a much more difficult task than say a 4-top). All that being said, it is far too often that I have seen an "indifferent" wait staff when it comes to a large party and in those cases, maybe 18% should not be the norm.

thetrob wrote:A gratuity is meant as a thank-you and recognition for exceptional service

I think this is the heart of the issue. The tip isn't really a "thank you"--it's the vast majority of the employee's salary. I prefer to look at the 18% add on as the employer showing me my share of the cost of the salary for the server. What I add above the 18% is then the "thank you for exceptional service". Works for me.

boudreaulicious wrote:

thetrob wrote:A gratuity is meant as a thank-you and recognition for exceptional service

I think this is the heart of the issue. The tip isn't really a "thank you"--it's the vast majority of the employee's salary. I prefer to look at the 18% add on as the employer showing me my share of the cost of the salary for the server. What I add above the 18% is then the "thank you for exceptional service". Works for me.

Yes - and, frankly, I think the legislation that allows this to be the case opens the door for all kinds of abuses. Either we should have a minimum wage or not.

(However, I should also say that I find the type of person who expresses their indignation at this loophole by ripping off their server and not tipping to be the very worst kind of ignoramus.)

Mhays wrote:

boudreaulicious wrote:

thetrob wrote:A gratuity is meant as a thank-you and recognition for exceptional service

I think this is the heart of the issue. The tip isn't really a "thank you"--it's the vast majority of the employee's salary. I prefer to look at the 18% add on as the employer showing me my share of the cost of the salary for the server. What I add above the 18% is then the "thank you for exceptional service". Works for me.

Yes - and, frankly, I think the legislation that allows this to be the case opens the door for all kinds of abuses. Either we should have a minimum wage or not.

(However, I should also say that I find the type of person who expresses their indignation at this loophole by ripping off their server and not tipping to be the very worst kind of ignoramus.)

Mhays, that's an interesting way of looking at it, but in some ways it is flawed, and yes as boudreaulicious states by not having a standard minimum wage for tipped employees, it opens the door for all types of abuse. In addition, the amount a server makes varies from establishment to establishment, there are places that do pay their wait staff the standard minimum wage or above and others that do not. Places where staff shares tips, others where the server keeps it all. As a customer, how much I tip should not be based on what the base wage of the server is, frankly, I, like most people, have no idea what that base wage is in any particular establishment or who they may be splitting it with. Is that employer who is showing you your share of the servers cost, also showing you your share of the food cost?, cooks cost?, dishwasher?, host/hostess? Is the cook making $10/hour, or dishwasher at minimum wage , regardless of how many people are in the house any more or less deserving? Should we break that $20 entree down into it's pieces to see who is making what? I think not.

For "regular" service, I normally tip in the 20% range. Years ago the standard was 15%. As the expected "norm", I would like to believe that most people tip in the 15-20% range as a standard. I am sure there are people out there who out of ignorance, maliciousness or outright cheapness will tip less, but I would hope that it is the exception. I would also say that tipping less than the "norm" because of poor service is no more ripping off the server than a server offering poor service and expecting a "normal" tip is ripping off the customer.

thetrob wrote:If a place like the Elysian or upscale restaurants are trying to reduce the burden on their customers to constantly worry about who to tip and how much by having a "no-tip" policy, why not just make the resturants "no-tip" and roll the amount into the cost of the food. Make the $20 entree $24, the $2 Coke $2.50 and so on, and post a no-tipping policy in the restaurant.

Because charging $4.80 for an iced tea would be outrageous.

Seriously though, I think most restaurants wouldn't do it simply because most other restaurants don't do it. If I don't know the policy, or don't feel like doing the math in my head, Balsan suddenly appears more expensive than comparable restaurants, even if the total at the end of the night would end up the same.

Whenever I travel to a place where tax and service are included*, I have to do a mental shift, so as not to perceive everything as substantially more expensive. I'd be willing to bet that most Europeans coming to the States have to make the exact opposite shift when reading a menu.

-Dan

* even then, I have a hard time not tipping my normal % after a meal

dansch wrote:Whenever I travel to a place where tax and service are included*...
* even then, I have a hard time not tipping my normal % after a meal

I hear you. It reminds me of situations here, when a service charge has been added, and I know it has, but I want to throw an extra five bucks in anyway, so I add in the five bucks on the charge slip, and then I'm worried that the server will think that I didn't know service was included and five bucks is all I care to tip on a $100 check! I always wish there were a checkbox on the charge slip that read, "Yes, I know service has already been added, and I'm giving this small extra amount in the full knowledge of that, so don't think I'm cheap!"

Life is so complicated.

riddlemay wrote:Life is so complicated.

Before I went to Denmark I was doing some research and encountered the fantastic food blog verygoodfood.dk, which provided a lot of insight on the Danish dining scene. I stumbled across a post and lengthy comment discussion on tipping which I initially hoped would help me navigate tipping in Denmark, but only further confused me. As it turns out, there's just no good sense to be made of it.

In the end, I ate very well on the trip, tried to tip generously but sensibly, and hope I didn't offend anyone with my over- or under-tipping if I got it wrong.

-Dan

thetrob wrote:

Mhays wrote:(However, I should also say that I find the type of person who expresses their indignation at this loophole by ripping off their server and not tipping to be the very worst kind of ignoramus.)

I would also say that tipping less than the "norm" because of poor service is no more ripping off the server than a server offering poor service and expecting a "normal" tip is ripping off the customer.

To be clear, I meant the person who is expressing their indignation at the tipping system, not at a particular server. The one part of the whole system that's clear: if you feel you didn't get your money's worth of service you are free to express that in your tip - what annoys me are people who don't tip good service for some arbitrary reason.

Too often, what happens in the latter case is that the check is passed around, and everyone puts in what he/she thinks is his/her portion of the check. And in my experience, over half the time, the total comes up significantly short of what would be a fair tip. (My best guess as to why is not that people deliberately chip in less than they should, but rather, they think of their entree but they forget about the glass of wine or cup of coffee, or they forget about or miscalculate the tax or tip.)

Well, there's a simple solution to that: have the total with tip, and each person's share thereof, figured by someone who's good at math. And failing the presence of someone who can handle the math, whose smart phone doesn't have a calculator? There's no reason why a party of 12 can't do as good a job (or, come to think of it, a better job) of calculating the correct total with tip as a party of 2.

I LIKE the tipping system. I like compensation systems where those who are outstanding, who really CARE and are passionate about their work can actually make a lot more money than those who are just wasting oxygen.

Good servers make good money. Many of them also claim poverty to reduce their tax liability. Lousy servers quickly move on as the money is all that great.

Katie wrote:

Too often, what happens in the latter case is that the check is passed around, and everyone puts in what he/she thinks is his/her portion of the check. And in my experience, over half the time, the total comes up significantly short of what would be a fair tip. (My best guess as to why is not that people deliberately chip in less than they should, but rather, they think of their entree but they forget about the glass of wine or cup of coffee, or they forget about or miscalculate the tax or tip.)

Well, there's a simple solution to that: have the total with tip, and each person's share thereof, figured by someone who's good at math. And failing the presence of someone who can handle the math, whose smart phone doesn't have a calculator? There's no reason why a party of 12 can't do as good a job (or, come to think of it, a better job) of calculating the correct total with tip as a party of 2.

Ironically, the pre-inclusion of tip for large parties is actually a service to the customer, for reasons that nsxtasy got at. It's not that a party of 12 lacks someone good at math; in any party of 12 of which I'm a member, I'm one who's good at math (and almost certainly not the only one). The issue is that in those parties of 12 in which you don't get to decide who the other 11 people are, there's bound to be one person who insists his share is less than it is. The pre-inclusion of the tip ensures that at least I don't have to argue with this yahoo just to make sure the server doesn't get shorted. (Even if it means we other 11 have to carry a little more than our share of the load to pay the total bill.)

riddlemay wrote:Ironically, the pre-inclusion of tip for large parties is actually a service to the customer, for reasons that nsxtasy got at. It's not that a party of 12 lacks someone good at math; in any party of 12 of which I'm a member, I'm one who's good at math (and almost certainly not the only one). The issue is that in those parties of 12 in which you don't get to decide who the other 11 people are, there's bound to be one person who insists his share is less than it is. The pre-inclusion of the tip ensures that at least I don't have to argue with this yahoo just to make sure the server doesn't get shorted. (Even if it means we other 11 have to carry a little more than our share of the load to pay the total bill.)

Yes, exactly. When there's a party of 12 (or any other number) and everyone gets about the same amount of food and drink, it's easy enough to split the bill and come up with an amount that includes a proper tip. The problem is when people don't get the same amount of food and drink - for example, someone who just gets a burger, and someone else who orders a lobster and a fancy wine - and there's no consensus on splitting the bill equally. The other problem that sometimes happens is when people don't all depart at the same time, and those who leave early leave less than their fair share of a bill which hasn't been totalled and presented yet.

My experience is that when I'm with a relatively small number of good friends who dine out together regularly, we usually split the bill evenly (regardless of exactly how even it is) and there are no problems. The biggest problems have been with a big group of co-workers going out together for lunch or after work and ordering food and drink which varies widely.

Servers scam allegedly crappy tippers.

David Hammond wrote: Servers scam allegedly crappy tippers.

Mugs 'n' Jugs, huh? I'm sure there's a great joke in there somewhere....

Over at Slate.com, Brian Palmer is all fired up about tipping in restaurants. He wants to see it abolished and provides some ideas on how to get rid of it:

at Slate.com, Brian Palmer wrote:When wealthy Americans brought home the practice of tipping from their European vacations in the late 19th century, their countrymen considered it bribery. State legislatures quickly banned the practice. But restaurateurs, giddy at the prospect of passing labor costs directly to customers, eventually convinced Americans to accept tipping.

We had it right the first time. Tipping is a repugnant custom. It’s bad for consumers and terrible for workers. It perpetuates racism. Tipping isn’t even good for restaurants, because the legal morass surrounding gratuities results in scores of expensive lawsuits.

Tipping Is an Abomination

=R=

Normally I tip about twenty percent. I just mentally do it in my head so it ends up various amounts not exact. I am less careful in a low end restaurant (taking into account the service) than I would be at a high end place to make sure I tip twenty percent. I don't generally tip at take outs but I might throw in my change or a buck into their jars. For delivery I tip between three and five dollars generally. If my mother is there it will be five, she is a little more generous than I am. I tip a buck or so to a coat check person and a couple of bucks to a car hike.

Even though I find merit in the Slate article, I don't object to the continuation of the tipping tradition in restaurants. I do, however, object to the spread of tipping. You never know where you're going to find a tip jar or tip box these days. And the blurring of boundaries inevitably leads you to wonder, "Well, why doesn't my dry cleaner have a tip jar? It's the next logical step! And how is my dry cleaner fundamentally different from [this establishment that has put out a tip jar]? What's going to stop it? Will I have to tip my surgeon next?"

I went to Next last night for the 1st time. I've been thinking about it a lot as it applies to tipping.

There's something delightful about having pre-paid for a meal, including service. No guest work, no math to be done, and no complaint about the need to add more, or less, for gratuity.

We did have an additional bill because we added beverage pairings. Mr. pairs4life noticed the gratuity to our beverage service was added pre-tax and liked that version.

I am a big proponent of including labor costs in the menu prices. From a consumer's standpoint, it gives you a more realistic cost for each dish. I would even like to see tax included in the price, the way it is in many European countries.

There are many other arguments that can be made against the tipping system. For one, it sets the server up as an independent contractor whose goal is to make the most tips by whatever means possible. Often times that causes behavior that may conflict with the goals of the management, including upselling the customer or giving away freebies. It also leads to stereotyping and prejudice towards certain types of customers who may be perceived as poor tippers.

On the other side, it allows management to overstaff the restaurant on slow nights and not have to pay for having servers on-call in case of an unexpected rush. Often times restaurants abuse this policy by having servers perform other duties like cleaning and refilling salt shakers at less than minimum wage. Most businesses reward their employees for loyalty by increasing their pay grade over time. Servers do not receive such raises. Moreover, does a server that works at an overpriced fine dining restaurant really work that much harder than a server at a corner diner? If anything, their work is probably easier. Should one server receive $40 for opening a $200 bottle of wine as opposed to another getting $0.30 for keeping your $1.50 glass of iced tea topped off?

Anyhow, we have all heard the arguments both ways, but what I really want to know is why if the cost of eating at a restaurant has increased at (or often higher than) the rate of inflation, has the acceptable tipping percentage increased also? Shouldn't it remain constant, since the price of the meal has increased?

Edit: Sorry, I didn't read the actual first post in this thread. I think nsxtasy asked some really valid questions, that had nothing to do with the wisdom of the whole tipping system, rather he asked about acceptable tipping practices under other than standard service situations. Often times, for instance, the cashier is delegated to wrap up all the "to go" packages, yet they rarely get tipped, or just get some change in a jar. I think those cashiers, though they do get at least minimum wage, often do as much work preparing a "to go" order as a server would serving it. Unless it is the owner of the restaurant, I try to tip them fairly well (which usually seems to surprise them), and also insures extra careful handling of my order with fewer mistakes and more condiments. Many delivery guys work as independent contractors for the delivery fees. Therefore, I will figure at least 20% minus the delivery charge (assuming they do get to keep the delivery charge). I have heard many stories of delivery guys not receiving credit card tips, or having to wait several days to get them, so I will always try to tip them in cash if possible (plus I am a little paranoid of giving my credit card number for a delivery). Then again, the guy who has to prep the package for delivery probably gets no tip at all.

pairs4life wrote:I went to Next last night for the 1st time. I've been thinking about it a lot as it applies to tipping.

There's something delightful about having pre-paid for a meal, including service. No guest work, no math to be done, and no complaint about the need to add more, or less, for gratuity.

What if the service sucks? Do you feel cheated?

TCK wrote:

pairs4life wrote:I went to Next last night for the 1st time. I've been thinking about it a lot as it applies to tipping.

There's something delightful about having pre-paid for a meal, including service. No guest work, no math to be done, and no complaint about the need to add more, or less, for gratuity.

What if the service sucks? Do you feel cheated?

Hmmm, good question and one that probably comes up with large groups & small print on me u adding 18% for parties of 5 or more, maybe the service was better because they already know they've got their money and it is not like they bring you anything so you could leave extra, unless you had cash.

TCK wrote:

pairs4life wrote:I went to Next last night for the 1st time. I've been thinking about it a lot as it applies to tipping.

There's something delightful about having pre-paid for a meal, including service. No guest work, no math to be done, and no complaint about the need to add more, or less, for gratuity.

What if the service sucks? Do you feel cheated?

Then you go to the manager, who can actually do something about it, and complain. A server is never going to say, " Hey Boss, that table left me a really lousy tip because I am a really lousy server".

d4v3 wrote:

TCK wrote:

pairs4life wrote:I went to Next last night for the 1st time. I've been thinking about it a lot as it applies to tipping.

There's something delightful about having pre-paid for a meal, including service. No guest work, no math to be done, and no complaint about the need to add more, or less, for gratuity.

What if the service sucks? Do you feel cheated?

Then you go to the manager, who can actually do something about it, and complain. A server is never going to say, " Hey Boss, that table left me a really lousy tip because I am a really lousy server".

I agree. If you prepay for the food and it sucks, do you feel cheated? If it's bad enough, you complain and have it sent back. If the service is bad you complain to the manager.

It's amazing the restaurant industry has been able to survive in so many other countries with a minimal tipping policy

d4v3 wrote:I am a big proponent of including labor costs in the menu prices. From a consumer's standpoint, it gives you a more realistic cost for each dish. I would even like to see tax included in the price, the way it is in many European countries.

My experience in other countries that do not practice tipping in restaurants is that your waiter takes your order, brings you your food and then disappears. When we were in the Netherlands during a heat wave, for example, we learned to order two beverages with our meal, because otherwise there was no way to get a refill.

d4v3 wrote:On the other side, it allows management to overstaff the restaurant on slow nights and not have to pay for having servers on-call in case of an unexpected rush. Often times restaurants abuse this policy by having servers perform other duties like cleaning and refilling salt shakers at less than minimum wage. Most businesses reward their employees for loyalty by increasing their pay grade over time. Servers do not receive such raises. Moreover, does a server that works at an overpriced fine dining restaurant really work that much harder than a server at a corner diner? If anything, their work is probably easier. Should one server receive $40 for opening a $200 bottle of wine as opposed to another getting $0.30 for keeping your $1.50 glass of iced tea topped off?

Anyhow, we have all heard the arguments both ways, but what I really want to know is why if the cost of eating at a restaurant has increased at (or often higher than) the rate of inflation, has the acceptable tipping percentage increased also? Shouldn't it remain constant, since the price of the meal has increased?

Very valid questions that I have often wondered myself.

LAZ wrote:My experience in other countries that do not practice tipping in restaurants is that your waiter takes your order, brings you your food and then disappears. When we were in the Netherlands during a heat wave, for example, we learned to order two beverages with our meal, because otherwise there was no way to get a refill.

That perfectly describes my experience at most of the places that I dined at in London. The worst experience was having to go back to the kitchen on Christmas Day to find anyone in the place to get the check as we had not seen a waiter or staff person in 30 minutes.

jlawrence01 wrote:

LAZ wrote:My experience in other countries that do not practice tipping in restaurants is that your waiter takes your order, brings you your food and then disappears. When we were in the Netherlands during a heat wave, for example, we learned to order two beverages with our meal, because otherwise there was no way to get a refill.

That perfectly describes my experience at most of the places that I dined at in London. The worst experience was having to go back to the kitchen on Christmas Day to find anyone in the place to get the check as we had not seen a waiter or staff person in 30 minutes.

That's awful, but it jibes with my experience of being in London on Christmas Day in 1969, when the streets gave the appearance of a neutron bomb having hit--the kind that kills all the people but leaves the buildings standing.

I was eating out with Mr. Pie this morning at The Bungalow, where the owner doubles as the waitress. She had one of those fancy iPad checkout systems, and apparently there is no way to add the tip, which I think was hooey. She said she did not want a tip because she was the owner. She insisted, being a stubborn Irish girl; I mentioned my husband was also Irish and left $5. Has anyone heard of this before? I heard that when you go to a salon and the owner does your hair, you don't have to tip, but I never thought about it for restaurants. Thoughts?

Pie Lady wrote:I was eating out with Mr. Pie this morning at The Bungalow, where the owner doubles as the waitress. She had one of those fancy iPad checkout systems, and apparently there is no way to add the tip, which I think was hooey. She said she did not want a tip because she was the owner. She insisted, being a stubborn Irish girl; I mentioned my husband was also Irish and left $5. Has anyone heard of this before? I heard that when you go to a salon and the owner does your hair, you don't have to tip, but I never thought about it for restaurants. Thoughts?

I remember once hosting an LTH dinner at a GNR, where the owner and his family personally waited on our table. As usual, the LTH'ers tipped very generously. I felt a little odd about giving the owner such a huge tip, especially since service was already included in the very generous per person price he gave us for an exceptional meal. I solved the problem by paying the exact amount with the bill, then giving him a separate stack of bills to "distribute among the entire restaurant staff for making our meal so enjoyable". Hopefully, this meant the cooks, busboys, cleaning people as well as the servers who waited on other tables each got a share of the bounty. This arrangement seemed to please the owner immensely, and saved me the embarrassment of what to do with the extra money (which was more than $200). I am sure it pleased his employees also.