eatchicago wrote:

Dmnkly wrote:

eatchicago wrote:To suggest that people tip for self-esteem issues would indicate that if given the opportunity to tip anonymously, then those people would tip less (or not at all). Do you believe that's the case?

I have no doubt that there's a large chunk of society that, if all tips were on an anonymous basis, would never tip a dime.

Perhaps, (depends on what you call a 'large chunk') but I don't believe it's the majority. I suppose my point is that I think riddlemay missed the main point of tipping when he breaks it down to a function of gratitude and self-esteem. I believe that most people recognize it (consciously or not) as part of the contract, and we don't follow contracts for either of those purposes but simply because we believe that it's immoral not to.

No, I definitely agree with that sentiment, and I think you and I approach it much the same way. It is, at least for our generation I think, not an optional expression of gratitude but rather an expense as concrete and standard as the prices listed on the menu with the odd (and, arguably, bordering on archaic) caveat that it isn't explicitly stated. The uncertainty arises not from a desire not to be perceived in a certain manner, but rather a genuine confusion about what amount is expected and appropriate.

riddlemay wrote:You can revise it slightly to say that not only don't we want to be "one of those people who doesn't tip," but that it pleases us to regard ourselves as in compliance with the social contract.

This is the part that I disagree with. Just as in my newspaper machine example, I don't feel particularly good about going through my everyday transactions. But I certainly would feel like crap if I didn't hold up my end of the transactions. Doing something to "feel good" is not the same as doing something to avoid "feeling bad".

Does it please me that I'm not a thief? I suppose it does, in the same way that it pleases me that I'm not a sociopath or a genocidal military leader. But it doesn't come into play when I'm giving the pizza delivery guy a few bucks.

Dmnkly wrote:It is, at least for our generation I think, not an optional expression of gratitude but rather an expense as concrete and standard as the prices listed on the menu with the odd (and, arguably, bordering on archaic) caveat that it isn't explicitly stated.

I agree with this, and feel that it falls within the "cosmology" of tipping I described. To make an analogy similar to Michael's newspaper-machine: I do not borrow more money than I can repay, because I think it's morally wrong to do so and can lead to disaster. But when I pay all my bills, do I get some sense of gratification from the fact that I have managed my affairs successfully so far? Yes, I do! Some little part of me derives esteem from not being "one of those people" who bit off more than they can chew. (I realize there is a large chunk of "there but for the grace of God go I" in this, but that doesn't mean the other feeling isn't going on, too.) The line between what we do because it comports with our view of what's right and what we do because it makes us feel good to be one of those people who does what's right is a fuzzy one.

This brings up an interesting point: Though there are pleny of situations where the tip-ee is making decent money, at least when compared to crummy retail or manufacturing jobs where there are no tips. Many coffee houses, for example, pay well over minimum wage and offer benefits - along the lines of what a Wal-Mart employee earns. While barista-ing (which I've done) could be considered a crummy job, I would guess stocking shelves and offering customer service at Wal-Mart is comparable, at least in crumminess. Why, then, do baristas get tips but cashiers not? The truth of the matter is that a lot of tipping is purely social convention.

Many of the employees listed here as tip recipients fall into the category of those who earn minimum wage or more. Granted, they're not making as much as your average stockbroker - but minimum wage or below earners comprise about 2% of the US workforce and aren't exclusively tip earners.

I suppose my tip philosophy is something along these lines: if I'm aware that someone's wages depend on tips (do servers at cheap buffets fall into this category?) I tip 15-20%. If I run into a tip jar, I usually toss my change in (I did appreciate this as a barista - it adds up.) Delivery - I tip for food, don't for UPS. Some of this stuff gets awfully muddy, I have to say.

Mhays wrote:I suppose my tip philosophy is something along these lines: if I'm aware that someone's wages depend on tips (do servers at cheap buffets fall into this category?) I tip 15-20%. If I run into a tip jar, I usually toss my change in (I did appreciate this as a barista - it adds up.) Delivery - I tip for food, don't for UPS. Some of this stuff gets awfully muddy, I have to say.

Which only further supports the assertion that it has nothing to do with gratuity and everything to do with an undeclared but mutually understood clause in the service contract. It's in the food delivery guy's contract to receive a few bucks, but not in the UPS guy's contract. There's no rhyme or reason to it beyond the usual subjective value we place on countless professions. But it's still universally understood -- even if we're sometimes fuzzy on the fine print.

Just as an admittedly single point of reference, at the somewhat cheap steakhouse/buffet restaurant where I worked, the "servers" were paid as waitstaff at the below minimum wage rate. So that would have put us into the category of non-minimum wage workers whose wages depended on tips.

How about places like Fox and Obel Cafe -- tip jar at the counter at which you order (and tip line on credit card receipts), staff bring out your order and bus your table when you're done. No refilling of drinks or other service once you've been served your food. How does one tip there? Tip jar? Leave something on the table for the "server"/busser? I usually only leave something in the tip jar assuming it will be split between the counter folks and the floor folks, but would be curious of others' approach.

Matt wrote:How about places like Fox and Obel Cafe -- tip jar at the counter at which you order (and tip line on credit card receipts), staff bring out your order and bus your table when you're done. No refilling of drinks or other service once you've been served your food. How does one tip there? Tip jar? Leave something on the table for the "server"/busser? I usually only leave something in the tip jar assuming it will be split between the counter folks and the floor folks, but would be curious of others' approach.

Depends what they are doing, but usually a couple of bucks in the jar from my change.

Dmnkly wrote:Which only further supports the assertion that it has nothing to do with gratuity and everything to do with an undeclared but mutually understood clause in the service contract.

This is true. It's why I had that question about tipping the hostess for fetching the coats. I understand the social contract with servers, valet parkers and coatcheck girls. The social contract with hostesses--since the hostess/checker is a fairly recent phenomenon--has yet to be written, or maybe I just didn't get the email.

I found this information on tipped employees interesting, if not helpful in this instance.

More on the service contract, the useful framework dmnkly put forward: Interesting how the contract can change over time. For instance, in my lifetime, 15% was once considered a good tip. It was pretty much all you needed to tip to feel in compliance. But now, if you're not tipping 20%, you're not really in compliance. Which gets me back to it being about the self-esteem of the tipper. Nobody wants to feel he's not keeping up his end of the bargain. Everyone wants to feel like the "good burgher," "solid citizen" who does.

Hi ,

I found this recent article in the trib on tipping to be fascinating:
Tips: Where they go What a Chicago diner should know about tips.

I think it's hard for a diner to come up with a "standard" tipping rule because each restaurant has different polices on what the server gets to keep. I know that if I went into a restaurant where I knew the server was going to be splitting his/her tip among 5 other staff members, I'd be more generous because more people were depending on me.

I've waited tables at three vastly different restaurants and at each place, the policy of what I got to keep and what I should be tipping out, was different. Here is a rundown from a server's prospective.

Job one at a large, corporate-owned, family restaurant: This was almost 13 years ago. I made minimum wage for tipped positions and got to keep everything. They believed in paying their bussers and hosts the federal minimum wage for non-tipped positions and therefore did not want the wait staff tipping them out.

Job Two at a VERY large, upscale resort in the Chicago area. Corporate owned, lot of business meetings (good tips): This was about 11 years ago and I was a cocktail server at this place. They did NOT believe in minimum wage for tipped positions, so I made the regular federal minimum wage. They did require me to tip the bartender 20% of my nightly tips. It ticked me off a little once I found out that the bartender was making $19.80 an hour, plus tips from the people sitting at the bar, plus tips off of the two servers. Again, this was 11 years ago, so $19.80 an hour was a really sweet deal for a tipped position. I would have been fine tipping the bartender SOMETHING, but 20% seemed excessive in light of their high hourly wage.

Job Three at a locally owned upscale restaurant: I had this job about 10 years ago. This place expected you to tip everyone and their brother. 5% to each hostess (there were two) 10% to each bartender (again, two) 5% to each busboy (again, two per shift), 5% to the expediter, and (my favorite) you were expected to give the cooks and head chef "a little something" at the end of the night to show your appreciation.

Now, as a diner, I often wonder where my money is going when I leave it on the table. I worry that management will hose the servers and underpay the staff, expecting the tips to be split up.

Kim

Kim3 wrote:Job Three at a locally owned upscale restaurant: I had this job about 10 years ago. This place expected you to tip everyone and their brother. 5% to each hostess (there were two) 10% to each bartender (again, two) 5% to each busboy (again, two per shift), 5% to the expediter, and (my favorite) you were expected to give the cooks and head chef "a little something" at the end of the night to show your appreciation.

That's nuts! You had to give away fully half your tip money! I never realized that went on.

I don't know if it induces me to tip more than 20% (I think that's plenty), but it does make me angry on your behalf. Although I believe, of course, that busboys et. al. have the right to make a living, too, so I'm ambivalent. But it does remove the emotional component of "I'm happy with the service you gave me" when the server isn't even the beneficiary of my tip.

thanks MHays and Kim3 - those are very useful links for this discussion.

Kim3's Job 3 scenario is what I was referring to earlier when i claimed that you don't really have to tip the hostess - she will receive a share of tips from the waitstaff.

Most people who have never waited tables fail to understand the "tipped minimum wage" phenomenon referenced in MHays link and assume that all waitpersons receive full minimum wage. Not the case!! This is actually my deciding factor most of the time if I'm questioning whether I should tip: I ask myself, "Is this person most likely receiving full minimum wage, or the tipped adjusted amount?" This is why I don't tip Starbucks counter people - they are getting pretty well compensated, especially considering the health insurance benefits which are also extended to part-timers.

riddlemay wrote:For instance, in my lifetime, 15% was once considered a good tip. It was pretty much all you needed to tip to feel in compliance. But now, if you're not tipping 20%, you're not really in compliance.

There isn't universal agreement on 20 percent. Most guides you see still give the amount expected as "15 to 20 percent." This guide is typical. I'd guess that the average diner, who doesn't hang out on dining boards or wait tables for a living, is still tipping 15 percent with no idea that isn't a perfectly adequate tip.

For most people, tips vary depending on the service they receive, the type of establishment, the location, whether you tip on the amount before or after tax, how much of the bill is wine or other alcohol (should opening and pouring a $100 bottle of wine merit the same tip as serving 10 $10 cocktails?) and, often, the ease in calculating the amount or rounding to easy-to-tip denominations.

In 2006, the Zagat Survey gave the average restaurant tip in the United States at 18.7 percent. But Zagat is a wholly self-reported survey of a self-selected audience of diners. My guess is that its survey participants probably tip a bit higher than average and also report tipping higher than they actually do. The IRS calculates tips at 8 percent.

This study shows that people tend to tip lower percentages as the bill rises.

LAZ wrote:This study shows that people tend to tip lower percentages as the bill rises.

When Phil Donahue still lived on the north shore, I recall he got reamed in a social column for his tipping practices. He acknowledged that he tipped a lower percentage as the bill rises. This was long enough ago that we are talking the 10% tipping range norm.

Regards,

LAZ wrote:For most people, tips vary depending on the service they receive, the type of establishment, the location, whether you tip on the amount before or after tax...

I think another variable (not yet discussed) is how robust the economy and/or the stock market is. The before-or-after-tax question puts me in mind of this. I used to tip 20% on the pre-tax amount, for all the sensible reasons. Then, as the Dow rose to 14,000 and housing values soared, I started thinking, "Oh, what the heck, I can afford 20% of the post-tax amount, and the server needs it more than me, and it will buttress my self-esteem to feel like a sport." I haven't reverted from that larger largesse yet--but with $4.20 gas, a house that's worth 15% less than it once was, and the prospect of a Great Depression feeling maybe not like a wolf at the door but a wolf prowling around the front yard, tipping on the post-tax amount feels less and less like largesse and more and more like profligacy.

I have been to he US several times now - but still Iam insecure when it comes to tipping, so I have several questions:

1. Someone told me that the easiest way to figure out the sum of the tip is to double the tax (and then round it up to the next full dollar or the next 10 - for example 15,40 goes to 16 and 113 gos to 120) - is that still a good way to do it, even at first class restaurants?

2. When I have an aperetif at the bar first, do I tip the bartender seperately, even when I pay the drinks later with the check? And is there a difference in amount at fine dining places for the bartenders? (Usually, as far as I know, it is 1$ per drink, right?)

3. Did I get this right that I tip the person who brings our coats at the end of the night as well, even if it is the host/ess or the waiter who was already tipped with the ckeck? Again: is there a difference in amount at fine dining places?

4. Is it better for the waiter / is it more common to leave the tip in cash or put it on the credit card?


On a general note I have to say that I find the american practice of tipping very strange. In europe you tip as well (5-10%), but even though most waiters still can use it, they don't really have to live off the tip - they get a decent enough wage from the people who hired them in the first place! Especially at high end places. And this wage is fixed every month and NOT dependent on the check of a table - as is still the case with the so called "flat rate" at places like Trotter's or Keller's: I mean how silly is that - basically the "flat rate" system is the same as before, only the guest doesn't decide the final amount any more.

From my experience, the biggest problem with the american tipping system is, that the waiter has a vital interest of pushing the final check up - because the higher the check the higher the tip (ironically this can be especially be a problem at "flat rate" restaurants). And more than once (at middle- and lower-end places such as steakhouses and diners) I had the feeling of beeing not welcome anymore, once it was clear that I wouldn't order anything else (in europe it is considered incredibly, unbelievably rude, if not downright insulting, to bring a customer his check without him asking for it). The reason is clear: the sooner a new customer comes in, the more money a waiter will make.

My (or better: the european) standpoint is: I hire a person, I profit from him/her doing a good job, so I pay him to make a living. Period.

Anyway, sorry for getting a bit off-topic - and thanks for giving me advice regarding the above questions.

greetings
kai

Kai, I think everybody on this thread is right there with you, but the current system is so ingrained that nobody seems to be able to change it. I remember the relief our family felt on vacation in Europe, where the tip was figured in for us (IIRC- I was fourteen and didn't pay for anything) Nobody, even those on this thread whose advice I would take as gospel, seems to be able to offer definitive advice as to who gets a tip besides your waiter....

However, I should point out that food taxes vary widely from place to place (often there are municipal taxes, and so can vary even from city to suburbs) so they are NOT a good way to figure a tip (IIRC, downtown Chicago taxes are around 10%, so it might be accurate in that instance.)

Most Americans figure the tip on the pre-tax amount: my husband's cheat is to double the pre-tax amount and move the decimal place so you get 20% (from there, 15% is easy to figure - we often tip 20, though) 15% is usually what's expected, 10 if you're dissatisfied (I agree with most, a short tip is a passive-agressive way to show displeasure.) So, on a bill of 100.00, doubling it is 200.00, moving the decimal place over one point tells you to tip of 20.00.

Good question about the cash vs credit: servers?

kai-m wrote:And more than once (at middle- and lower-end places such as steakhouses and diners) I had the feeling of beeing not welcome anymore, once it was clear that I wouldn't order anything else (in europe it is considered incredibly, unbelievably rude, if not downright insulting, to bring a customer his check without him asking for it). The reason is clear: the sooner a new customer comes in, the more money a waiter will make.

Nothing to add on the tipping topic, kai, except to note how interesting it is to me how different Europe is from America on the "bringing the check without the customer asking for it" etiquette. I always prefer when the waitperson senses (from the rhythm of the whole meal) the right time to bring the check without my having to ask for it. The next best thing is when the waitperson at least makes him/herself present enough in my field of vision that I can gesture that I want the check. The worst thing is when getting the damn check is a struggle.

I can't remember where I'd seen about credit card tipping, but there was a series of posts written saying that often the server is forced to "eat" the credit card charges from the card processor when the tip is put on the bill. This is typically 20-30 cents plus 2-4% of the entire bill (depending on the size of the business and the card used -- AMEX charges some businesses more, some processors charge the business extra for 'points' cards etc.).

So leave cash if you can.

Nothing does more for your concept of tipping than having waited tables. In fact, the only non-tippers I've ever known have never worked in any sort of customer service position; low-tippers are usually removed from the reality of a job serving people, too. Case in point, my mother worked as a waitress quite a lot as I was growing up; my dad, who has never worked in a tipped position, is an embarassingly low tipper, even though he could see that his wife's wage depended on it.

Though I've always tipped around 20%, the move from Washington state (where servers are paid regular old state minimum, which I think is up around $8/hr) to Indiana has shone a harsh light on what servers in most of the country make and how vital tipping is. When I applied for a serving position after I first moved and was offered under $3/hr at a nicer restaurant I was utterly appalled.

Interesting side-discussion of when to bring the check; I believe the disparity might actually between American and European dining expectations. Americans often do not expect to take meals at a leisurely pace, and so we can be in a terrible hurry to eat, pay, and then run to the next errand. Thus it's often a relief when they bring the check in a timely manner; it can be beneficial to both parties. When meals are expected to be a moment of pause or a social gathering then I can see how it would be rude to imply that you're tossing someone out for the benefit of your bottom line.

kai-m wrote:1. Someone told me that the easiest way to figure out the sum of the tip is to double the tax

No. The tax can vary.

Tip 15 to 20 percent on the amount before tax. You can round up if it makes it easier, but in less expensive places especially, people often leave change.

15 percent is average, and the minimum you should leave unless you've had terrible service that you can attribute to the server alone. 20 percent is a good tip, and what's expected in higher-end places. Tip more if you've had exceptional service.

kai-m wrote:2. When I have an aperetif at the bar first, do I tip the bartender seperately, even when I pay the drinks later with the check? And is there a difference in amount at fine dining places for the bartenders? (Usually, as far as I know, it is 1$ per drink, right?)

Bar tips are the same as food tips: 15 to 20 percent before tax, unless you order a very expensive bottle of wine, in which case you can get away with less.

Tip the higher percentage if you are ordering complicated drinks or if the drinks are very cheap.

If you sit at the bar, tip the bartender separately. For the best service at a bar where you aren't a regular, don't run a tab but pay cash as you go, tipping each time. Most restaurants prefer you settle your bar bill before moving to a table, anyway.

kai-m wrote:3. Did I get this right that I tip the person who brings our coats at the end of the night as well, even if it is the host/ess or the waiter who was already tipped with the ckeck? Again: is there a difference in amount at fine dining places?

Yes, tip whoever brings your coat. $1 to $2 per coat. (If you have only one coat, you might tip $2; two coats, $3; four, $5; or something like that.) Only better restaurants will have a coat check. In a diner, you're expected to hang up your coat yourself or throw it over your chair.

kai-m wrote:4. Is it better for the waiter / is it more common to leave the tip in cash or put it on the credit card?

Most common is to tip with a credit card if you pay by credit card. If it makes any difference to servers, they aren't complaining widely about it.

kai-m wrote:From my experience, the biggest problem with the american tipping system is, that the waiter has a vital interest of pushing the final check up - because the higher the check the higher the tip (ironically this can be especially be a problem at "flat rate" restaurants). And more than once (at middle- and lower-end places such as steakhouses and diners) I had the feeling of beeing not welcome anymore, once it was clear that I wouldn't order anything else (in europe it is considered incredibly, unbelievably rude, if not downright insulting, to bring a customer his check without him asking for it). The reason is clear: the sooner a new customer comes in, the more money a waiter will make.

In my experience in Europe, servers have no incentive to make sure you have what you want. The common thing (on a number of trips in several countries) was for the server to take your order and bring your food and then disappear until the end of the meal ... or long afterwards. So forget about asking for another drink, a condiment or any other add-on.

Visiting during a heat wave, I quickly learned to order two beverages with every meal because if I waited till I had finished the first one, there was no chance of getting a second.

On several occasions we waited quite a long time after finishing our meal before anyone came by so we could ask for the check.

It may be a myth that "tip" stands for "to insure promptness," but it usually works.

Having to ask for the check is considered a sign of bad service in the U.S., where most people want to eat, pay and get out. The way it's supposed to work here, is for the server to notice that you've finished your dessert, then come by and ask if you'd like anything further, and if you say no, bring you the check.

That's not (usually) an indication that you're expected to leave. We often sit talking and drinking coffee (with free refills) long after the check has arrived, and servers rarely show impatience unless the restaurant is very busy, but just keep coming by with fresh coffee.

If you say no and then change your mind and want something else, just flag a server down and he or she will take the check away again and add the new item onto it.

Sometimes servers will just leave the check without asking first if you want anything more. Sometimes that means they're trying to hurry you out so they can turn the table; sometimes it means they're trying to be unobtrusive and not interrupt your conversation; sometimes it just means that they're lousy at their job. In any case, you needn't leave till you're ready to, although it's considered a bit rude to hold on to your table if you've finished your meal and others are waiting.

LAZ wrote:Bar tips are the same as food tips: 15 to 20 percent before tax.
Tip the higher percentage if you are ordering complicated drinks or if the drinks are very cheap.

See, that is already a point where the "you-have-to-tip-no-matter-what-"system doesn't really work out: because in my experience you always leave at least 1 dollar per drink - even if the drink was just 3$...which is more than 30%...not that I care, but there is just no logic in all this.

LAZ wrote:The common thing (on a number of trips in several countries) was for the server to take your order and bring your food and then disappear until the end of the meal ... or long afterwards. So forget about asking for another drink, a condiment or any other add-on.

I see what you mean and it might be true sometimes - but I wouldn't put it to such extremes and it is definitely not the standard, either (and never ever the case in fine dining establishments!). But I have to admit that this is a point where I consider american waitstaff superiour than european. On the other hand I have known situations in the US where the waiter or bartender just didn't seem to see me (or didn't want to...)

LAZ wrote:On several occasions we waited quite a long time after finishing our meal before anyone came by so we could ask for the check.

Definitely true. But that is because nobody expects a diner to leave soon after finishing his meal. It can be enervating sometimes, still I much prefer that to beeing handed the check without asking. (But that just seems to be a cultural difference between the US and europe.)

LAZ wrote:although it's considered a bit rude to hold on to your table if you've finished your meal and others are waiting.

Good to know, because this can hardly happen in europe since "turning tables" several times a night is virtually unknown over here...once you sit, the table is yours for the night, no matter what kind of restaurant you are in. Of course, once you are finished and there is a line at the door, you might leave (or switch to the bar) to be kind to others - but this is considered a generous gesture and in no way expected of you. (In rustic pubs the waiter may sometimes ask you to switch to a smaller table with your drinks - but never ask you to leave).


Anyway, thanks for the advices.

I just had lunch with a friend a few days ago at a fairly well established suburban restaurant and we were witness to the following:
The table next to us was occupied by a couple, I presume husband and wife, when we arrived. The couple received their entrees and ate their food while quietly talking to themselves. After they finished their entrees they asked their server rather loudly that they would like to speak to a manager.

When the manager arrived they started complaining about everything they ate (the fish wasn't cooked properly, food was cold, drinks didn't have enough ice...on and on). I must note at this point that they had pretty much cleaned their plates which had the "licked clean" look to them. We did not hear them complain about the server who was also our server.

The manager apologized after listening to them and promptly comped their entire meal. He was very gracious to them. After he left the table the couple just stood up and left... no tip for the server...nothing, nada!

My friend and I were astounded! We ended up tipping the server a little more because he did a good job at our table and we felt bad for him.

chicagogrrl, I'm imagining it was a tossup whether you put that post in this thread or the World Class Asses thread.

I'm bumping this topic because I recently observed that Balsan and Ria, the restaurants in the new Elysian Hotel, are adding an automatic 18 percent service charge (tip) to all bills. I am told that a few other high-end restaurants are starting to do this as well.

As I noted in the topic where I posted about Ria, I generally tip a little more than that, but I'm not going to bother adding just a few bucks when there's already an automatic tip on the bill. (I'm not criticizing others here; if you want to leave precisely 20 percent and want to add the small amount for the extra 2 percent, by all means go for it.) If the service was truly exceptional I might add more, but in those circumstances it would probably be more than just a few bucks extra.

Anyway, my question now is, what if the service is absolutely dreadful? Let's say the staff is rude to you or ignores you in order to talk on their cell phone, service so blatantly bad that you want to "send a message" by leaving significantly less than the standard 18-20 percent. What do you do? (Fortunately I haven't experienced situations like that a whole lot, just a few times in my life, but it can and does happen.)

chicagogrrl wrote:The manager apologized after listening to them and promptly comped their entire meal. He was very gracious to them. After he left the table the couple just stood up and left... no tip for the server...nothing, nada!

My friend and I were astounded! We ended up tipping the server a little more because he did a good job at our table and we felt bad for him.

I have a similar story, one that took place many years ago. This was at an inexpensive restaurant near a college campus in another part of the country. I was quietly eating my dinner, solo, and the people at the next table left a cash tip on the table and left. A young man walked in and sat down at the table, and started to take the tip that the previous party had left. I said to him, loudly enough so that much of the restaurant could hear and see what he was doing, "Hey! That's HERS!" He left the tip alone (and the waitress quickly retrieved it and mouthed "thank you" to me). It didn't surprise me that the waitress waited about 20-30 minutes before bringing him a menu and taking his order, but it did surprise me that she did so at all. Anyway, that's another one that could also go in the "World Class Asses thread".

nsxtasy wrote:Anyway, my question now is, what if the service is absolutely dreadful? Let's say the staff is rude to you or ignores you in order to talk on their cell phone, service so blatantly bad that you want to "send a message" by leaving significantly less than the standard 18-20 percent. What do you do? (Fortunately I haven't experienced situations like that a whole lot, just a few times in my life, but it can and does happen.)

Most of the time, I'm in the same situation as you, thinking that the required 18% percent on the pre-tax bill is less than I would have otherwise left. If the service was not that great, I feel better about the so-called lower tip because I was saved from having to deviate from my normal 20% on the post-tax bill.

To answer your question, if the service is so dreadful that you really do not want to leave the required 18%, I think the thing to do is call over a manager to talk about the problem. I'm sure they would waive the tip or do something else to try to make things right.

nsxtasy wrote:Anyway, my question now is, what if the service is absolutely dreadful? Let's say the staff is rude to you or ignores you in order to talk on their cell phone, service so blatantly bad that you want to "send a message" by leaving significantly less than the standard 18-20 percent. What do you do? (Fortunately I haven't experienced situations like that a whole lot, just a few times in my life, but it can and does happen.)

In general the Automatic Tip has always bothered me, regardless of whether it is at an upscale restaurant, or the everyday places that add gratuities for parties of 6 or more. I, like most on these boards have said, will typically tip in excess of 18%, considerably more if the service is exceptional. If it is automatically added to the tab, I will rarely change it, and to answer your question, I have on occasion spoken to the manager and had it removed because of exceptionally poor service (it had to be really bad to do this).

A gratuity is meant as a thank-you and recognition for exceptional service, what bothers me most is that by automatically adding the tip the whole waiter/waitee equation is changed. As a customer I do not expect much from the waitstaff, take and fill an order in a timely manner, refill drinks if necessary, check and make sure things are satisfactory. Accomplish the basics and I think most people will tip in the 20% range. For the waitperson that goes a little beyond the ordinary, engages in conversation, remembers repeat customers, etc., the tip % will rise.

If a place like the Elysian or upscale restaurants are trying to reduce the burden on their customers to constantly worry about who to tip and how much by having a "no-tip" policy, why not just make the resturants "no-tip" and roll the amount into the cost of the food. Make the $20 entree $24, the $2 Coke $2.50 and so on, and post a no-tipping policy in the restaurant.

On another similar note, I was in Bandera the other day for a business lunch. They are now adding a gratuity of 18% for parties of 5 or more (not sure when this changed, I am usually there with less people). The service was excellent, as it usually is, so it surprised me that they have gone this route. I think they are doing their servers a dis-service as most would probably get more than 18% based on their normal high level of service.