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how to convince someone 'medium rare' is right?

how to convince someone 'medium rare' is right?
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  • how to convince someone 'medium rare' is right?

    Post #1 - August 1st, 2005, 8:49 am
    Post #1 - August 1st, 2005, 8:49 am Post #1 - August 1st, 2005, 8:49 am
    uhg. i was doing up some kalbi last nite... medium to medium rare. mostly medium...

    and the other person just got all flustered after she cut up the short ribs, and i quote: "it's still bloody inside".

    i mean the meat was totally done, it was on the grill/pan for an eternity. for her, it's merely the visual impact of the 'bloody' meat. can i "cure" this somehow? w/ hypnosis? double blind taste test? ugh. so tired of this argument. it's wrecking my kalbi experience EVERYTIME.
  • Post #2 - August 1st, 2005, 9:10 am
    Post #2 - August 1st, 2005, 9:10 am Post #2 - August 1st, 2005, 9:10 am
    Tony,

    I often cook leg of lamb to rare to medium rare. I have a sister who offered a guest: do you want it raw or cooked? It was cooked, just like your kalbi, but since you could see any red it was raw by her standards. She took her portion and microwaved it to a second death. When she cooks, it is cooked through, often dry and lifeless. We are both equally convinced the other is wrong. So I try my level best not to eat with her.

    Maybe eating kalbi should be with other friends? I know some LTH people whose mates are not particularly interested in their food interests. So they find buddies here to dine with to try what their mate will not share with them. So you don't feel alone, Chowist couples are really quite unusual as amplified here.

    All the best,
    Cathy2

    "You'll be remembered long after you're dead if you make good gravy, mashed potatoes and biscuits." -- Nathalie Dupree
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  • Post #3 - August 1st, 2005, 9:12 am
    Post #3 - August 1st, 2005, 9:12 am Post #3 - August 1st, 2005, 9:12 am
    Do what I do. Take yours off when it's done and leave the opther person's on until its dried out...like they like it. :twisted: I've given up fighting that battle with the Chow Poodle long ago.

    Actually, what I really do is start hers first, then put mine on the grill after a few minutes. Everything is done at the same time and everyone's happy.
    Steve Z.

    “Only the pure in heart can make a good soup.”
    ― Ludwig van Beethoven
  • Post #4 - August 1st, 2005, 4:52 pm
    Post #4 - August 1st, 2005, 4:52 pm Post #4 - August 1st, 2005, 4:52 pm
    There is an interesting article by Fuschia Dunlop in the August issue of Gourmet about three outstanding chefs from Sichuan and the culture shock of eating food in America for the first time. "The most striking is the visceral dislike of rawness. In China, the consumption of raw foods was historically viewed as a barbarian habit, and most everything is still eaten cooked. The chefs are horrified by the rare, bloody meat they are offered in America."

    When I cook, nothing makes me happier than seeing my guests happy. If that means butchering a dish by overcooking a serving for them, it's a small price to pay for their friendship.
    Authorized time shifting let the genie out of the bottle....
  • Post #5 - August 1st, 2005, 4:58 pm
    Post #5 - August 1st, 2005, 4:58 pm Post #5 - August 1st, 2005, 4:58 pm
    I think that guests ought to be served food the way that they like it whether that be near-raw or cooked beyond recognition.

    If I have a person at my house who wants his prime rib "well done", I do one of two things. I give the individual the end cut which is more done than the center cut. Or I heat up some an jus and heat (or braise) the meat for a minute or two until the redness goes away. It avoids all those hassles and the uncomfortable feeling around the dinner table.

    We all have our preferences - I cannot eat pork that is undercooked - and I guess that we are entitled to them without having someone pester us about it.
  • Post #6 - August 2nd, 2005, 2:48 pm
    Post #6 - August 2nd, 2005, 2:48 pm Post #6 - August 2nd, 2005, 2:48 pm
    Tony,

    Good luck. In my experience people who are going to switch to a less-cooked hunk of red meat will do it a) on their own time and b) before the age of, say, 20. Once they reach a certain age, I don't think there's any convincing them. I don't bother anymore, I just wince whenever I hear a steak ordered well done.

    It's especially painful for me when someone does it at a steak house or a fine dining establishment. They're paying a huge amount of money for a very high quality piece of meat, and they're going to cook it until it tastes just like a $1.29/lb usda select piece of shoe leather.

    I'm always somewhat happy to see restaurants not give patrons the choice. Order a steak, you get medium rare. No one ever asks you how you want your pasta cooked, it's always al dente (well, we wish). Why should they give you the choice when it comes to steak, or lamb, or venison?
    Ed Fisher
    my chicago food photos

    RIP LTH.
  • Post #7 - August 2nd, 2005, 3:40 pm
    Post #7 - August 2nd, 2005, 3:40 pm Post #7 - August 2nd, 2005, 3:40 pm
    One problem is that the FDA, rather than attempt to regulate the safety of food, insists that to be cooked to medium-rare, the internal temperature must reach an astonishing 145F. Medium is all the way up to 160F. A lot of people will never even know the correct temperatures (let alone the correct tastes and textures).
  • Post #8 - August 3rd, 2005, 10:46 pm
    Post #8 - August 3rd, 2005, 10:46 pm Post #8 - August 3rd, 2005, 10:46 pm
    Nothing is more disgusting than warmed up meat bloody and red, uncooked, you cut into it and the red corpuscles just flow out, the germs from the cow's intestinal tract are ready to infest your colons. If you know how to cook meat properly and you have patience you can cook meat so it is thoroughly done, and maintains juiciness, flavor, texture and overall quality.
  • Post #9 - August 3rd, 2005, 11:44 pm
    Post #9 - August 3rd, 2005, 11:44 pm Post #9 - August 3rd, 2005, 11:44 pm
    Alan N wrote:If you know how to cook meat properly and you have patience you can cook meat so it is thoroughly done, and maintains juiciness, flavor, texture and overall quality.


    Unless you're cooking en sous vide (and maybe even then), I call shenanigans.

    Me, I couldn't imagine life without medium rare steak, lamb, and duck, carpaccios, sushi, and tartares.

    Or, for that matter, chocolate mousse or caesar salad dressing.

    To each their own. This is why I've given up.
    Ed Fisher
    my chicago food photos

    RIP LTH.
  • Post #10 - August 4th, 2005, 4:44 am
    Post #10 - August 4th, 2005, 4:44 am Post #10 - August 4th, 2005, 4:44 am
    Good luck. In my experience people who are going to switch to a less-cooked hunk of red meat will do it a) on their own time and b) before the age of, say, 20. Once they reach a certain age, I don't think there's any convincing them. I don't bother anymore, I just wince whenever I hear a steak ordered well done.


    My wife has gone from a well done to a medium/medium well. She will now eat steak that has a tinge of pink in the center. It took me 11 years to make this progress.

    I've always wanted to do a "blind" taste test with someone who is adamant about well done, by covering their eyes and letting them taste medium rare, medium, and medium well and then ask which they preferred. Unfortunately, they will never take the test, because they don't want the "bloody meat". (Of course I would cheat and use a medium rare steak, medium steak, and well done liver) :twisted: :twisted:
    Bruce
    Plenipotentiary
    bruce@bdbbq.com

    Raw meat should NOT have an ingredients list!!
  • Post #11 - August 4th, 2005, 7:20 am
    Post #11 - August 4th, 2005, 7:20 am Post #11 - August 4th, 2005, 7:20 am
    Alan N wrote:Nothing is more disgusting than warmed up meat bloody and red, uncooked, you cut into it and the red corpuscles just flow out, the germs from the cow's intestinal tract are ready to infest your colons.


    I don't know anyone who eats unpurged cow intestines. Generally, the inside of any piece of meat is bacteria-free; the only nasty critters are on the outside (the exception, of course, is ground meat). So if the exterior of a piece of meat reaches 145° or so, the inside can be as red as you like and you're safe. But for me, I like beef carpaccio and steak tartare - sometimes you just gotta take chances (and never had a problem from either).
  • Post #12 - August 4th, 2005, 7:22 am
    Post #12 - August 4th, 2005, 7:22 am Post #12 - August 4th, 2005, 7:22 am
    Nothing is more disgusting than warmed up meat bloody and red, uncooked, you cut into it and the red corpuscles just flow out, the germs from the cow's intestinal tract are ready to infest your colons. If you know how to cook meat properly and you have patience you can cook meat so it is thoroughly done, and maintains juiciness, flavor, texture and overall quality.


    What about a filthy green vegetable that's spent its days pushing up through dirt and muck that dogs have walked on (and done worse on), providing a landing place and sometimes even food for every hairy little insect that flies around from dead thing to dead thing, leaving its trail of pathogens everywhere it goes?

    And don't even get me started on air! Like I want to breathe something that's been in your lungs!
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  • Post #13 - August 4th, 2005, 7:56 am
    Post #13 - August 4th, 2005, 7:56 am Post #13 - August 4th, 2005, 7:56 am
    I've always wanted to do a "blind" taste test with someone who is adamant about well done, by covering their eyes and letting them taste medium rare, medium, and medium well and then ask which they preferred. Unfortunately, they will never take the test, because they don't want the "bloody meat". (Of course I would cheat and use a medium rare steak, medium steak, and well done liver)


    I hate to admit it, but I used to be one of those folks who didn't like meat cooked any way but well done. I've changed my ways and eat my steaks medium. I'll occasionally tolerate a medium rare if the restaurant doesn't cook it properly but I don't prefer the texture. Most of the adversity to varying degrees of doneness may be attributable to texture preferences.

    The taste test approach may work but I'll tell you; a lot of people have texture issues with their food. You might get more out of that taste test than you bargained for! I know you would with me! :lol:
  • Post #14 - August 4th, 2005, 8:45 am
    Post #14 - August 4th, 2005, 8:45 am Post #14 - August 4th, 2005, 8:45 am
    I prefer well done. I don't mind a little pink but I know of people who like everything bloody and rare and it is not my thing. I personally would not try to change what a person likes.

    I agree with jlawrence01 that if a guest likes something prepared rare or well done to just do that instead of having what you like the only thing available and they may not like it.
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  • Post #15 - August 4th, 2005, 10:00 am
    Post #15 - August 4th, 2005, 10:00 am Post #15 - August 4th, 2005, 10:00 am
    I just wish I could get a chain resto to accept my request for medium-rare burgers, even when I'm willing to sign a waiver.
  • Post #16 - August 4th, 2005, 10:10 am
    Post #16 - August 4th, 2005, 10:10 am Post #16 - August 4th, 2005, 10:10 am
    JoelF wrote:I just wish I could get a chain resto to accept my request for medium-rare burgers, even when I'm willing to sign a waiver.


    Hackney's (at least the original on Harms) still cheerfully delivers my burgers rare, just as I ordered 'em.
  • Post #17 - August 4th, 2005, 10:20 am
    Post #17 - August 4th, 2005, 10:20 am Post #17 - August 4th, 2005, 10:20 am
    Alan N wrote:the germs from the cow's intestinal tract are ready to infest your colons


    Ed -- Re my post on Ixcapuzalco -- Do you still think it is my quote that needs to be expressly barred from the site tagline? This, my friend, is the Über Foul in LTH posting and, in fact, may warrant a special tagline all its own! :)
  • Post #18 - August 4th, 2005, 10:24 am
    Post #18 - August 4th, 2005, 10:24 am Post #18 - August 4th, 2005, 10:24 am
    LTH is just rife with colons today. Sheesh. I'm tempted to just start using gratuitous colons in my typing: just to: stay tr:end:y.

    ))<>((

    -ed
    Ed Fisher
    my chicago food photos

    RIP LTH.
  • Post #19 - August 4th, 2005, 4:09 pm
    Post #19 - August 4th, 2005, 4:09 pm Post #19 - August 4th, 2005, 4:09 pm
    I've gotten plenty of grief at Laschet's for ordering my hackepeter medium well and I'm tired of it. Somebody needs to tell them "the customer is always right." Wirklich.
  • Post #20 - August 4th, 2005, 4:16 pm
    Post #20 - August 4th, 2005, 4:16 pm Post #20 - August 4th, 2005, 4:16 pm
    nr706 wrote:Hackney's (at least the original on Harms) still cheerfully delivers my burgers rare, just as I ordered 'em.


    I'm really peeved when the waiter dutifully writes down rare or medium-rare, then delivers a medium hamburger. So I have gotten proactive, "If I order a rare hamburger, will it be rare or will it be what your kitchen decides is better for me: medium?" If I hear medium, then I find something else for dinner. An honest answer on the server's side will save all us grief, time and money.
    Cathy2

    "You'll be remembered long after you're dead if you make good gravy, mashed potatoes and biscuits." -- Nathalie Dupree
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  • Post #21 - August 4th, 2005, 11:15 pm
    Post #21 - August 4th, 2005, 11:15 pm Post #21 - August 4th, 2005, 11:15 pm
    My first taste of rare meat was an epiphany.

    My family kept kosher when I was a child, and that meant all meat was first salted down and rinsed to remove every vestige of blood and juices. Steaks were then broiled till they were uniformly gray inside. I never liked them.

    Meat for burgers got the same salting and rinsing at the butcher's before being ground; then my grandmother would mix it with matzo meal and egg and fry the resulting patties thoroughly. I occasionally got another type of burger at Top Hat (a White Castle type place): small, thin, greasy and cooked through. To this day, I'm not much of a burger fan, this early taste memory overwhelming more recent examples of better versions.

    But when I was about 12, for a special occasion, I was taken to Lelli's, an old-fashioned Italian steakhouse. I don't recall who did the ordering, but I was served a thick filet mignon, medium rare, at the kind of place where rare meant still cool inside. Lightly charred outside, deep pink-red inside, it swam in a pool of roseate juices. The flavor was intensely beefy; the texture meltingly tender. I was stunned. I can still taste it.

    From that point on, I became a steak fan, soon learning to order my steaks "very rare" at most eateries -- one stage past mooing, just so it's hot all the way through.

    Taste is sometimes cultural, sometimes visceral.
  • Post #22 - August 4th, 2005, 11:24 pm
    Post #22 - August 4th, 2005, 11:24 pm Post #22 - August 4th, 2005, 11:24 pm
    Choey wrote:I've gotten plenty of grief at Laschet's for ordering my hackepeter medium well and I'm tired of it. Somebody needs to tell them "the customer is always right." Wirklich.


    Hmmm, maybe that's why they look at me funny when I ask for it extra crispy and this time, dammit, saute the onions first!
  • Post #23 - August 5th, 2005, 5:02 am
    Post #23 - August 5th, 2005, 5:02 am Post #23 - August 5th, 2005, 5:02 am
    dees_1 wrote:
    I've always wanted to do a "blind" taste test with someone who is adamant about well done, by covering their eyes and letting them taste medium rare, medium, and medium well and then ask which they preferred. Unfortunately, they will never take the test, because they don't want the "bloody meat". (Of course I would cheat and use a medium rare steak, medium steak, and well done liver)


    Most of the adversity to varying degrees of doneness may be attributable to texture preferences.



    I would disagree with your choice of the word most. I would agree with the word some. When I have heard comments about my choice of medium-rare, they usually relate to bloody, alive, or how can you eat that. I believe there is a tendency among those who prefer well-done meat to be less experimental eaters and have blander palates. Of course there is nothing wrong with this, unless they are your spouse or family. Then you have to seek out LTH for solace. :D
    Bruce
    Plenipotentiary
    bruce@bdbbq.com

    Raw meat should NOT have an ingredients list!!
  • Post #24 - August 5th, 2005, 7:30 am
    Post #24 - August 5th, 2005, 7:30 am Post #24 - August 5th, 2005, 7:30 am
    Bruce, you may be right but I think most people prefer to use the "bloody, alive, how can you eat that" approach because they are afraid to say the mouth feel bothers them. That's kind of wimpy. Or they're just afraid of the unknown. It could be both.

    I know for me it was texture and most of my food preferences are texture related. I prefer caramelized onions over raw, cooked broccoli over raw, raw carrots over cooked. Visible partially cooked fat on any meat grosses me out. I know people like it; it's just not for me.

    Over time, I learned that the quality of meat also had a lot to do with it, along with the preparation method employed. There are folks out there *gasp* who think filet should be cooked like a round steak (pounded, floured and so on). Cook any piece of meat correctly and it's heaven.
  • Post #25 - August 5th, 2005, 11:03 am
    Post #25 - August 5th, 2005, 11:03 am Post #25 - August 5th, 2005, 11:03 am
    chefmike wrote:
    I agree with jlawrence01 that if a guest likes something prepared rare or well done to just do that instead of having what you like the only thing available and they may not like it.


    I would really like a chef to chime in thier thoughts about this. IMO I think that time and tastebuds have set standards for meat preparation and I wonder if a chef would be offended by someone ordering meat prepared in a manner that lessens its intended flavor and texture.

    Extreme, maybe. Opinionated, Yes. But, I compare well done steaks to asking for a spicy tuna roll to be filled with canned albacore.
    “An empty stomach is not a good political advisor.”
    Albert Einstein
  • Post #26 - August 5th, 2005, 12:49 pm
    Post #26 - August 5th, 2005, 12:49 pm Post #26 - August 5th, 2005, 12:49 pm
    dees_1 wrote:Visible partially cooked fat on any meat grosses me out. I know people like it; it's just not for me.

    Some of this taste preference is physiological and very likely genetic.

    The science of taste categorizes individuals as medium tasters, supertasters and nontasters, depending on their reaction to a chemical called 6-n-Propylthiouracil (PROP), which supertasters taste as intensely bitter and nontasters not at all.

    The ability to taste PROP is linked to a higher density of taste papillae on the apex of the tongue and more-functional taste buds, making supertasters more likely to be picky eaters highly sensitive to bitter and sweet flavors as well as to fat content, whereas nontasters tend to enjoy a broader range of flavors and textures.

    Gender also plays a role: Female nontasters are more likely to prefer fatty foods than male nontasters.

    Here's one study.
  • Post #27 - August 5th, 2005, 2:24 pm
    Post #27 - August 5th, 2005, 2:24 pm Post #27 - August 5th, 2005, 2:24 pm
    live2eat wrote:Extreme, maybe. Opinionated, Yes. But, I compare well done steaks to asking for a spicy tuna roll to be filled with canned albacore.


    Spicy tuna rolls are just one step up from California Rolls, notorious for using Krab.. so I'm not sure that's such a stretch :twisted:

    I really do like the pasta analogy. You don't leave your pasta raw, but you don't overcook the heck out of it, either. There's a happy state in between where the pasta is just perfect. Medium rare. And no one ever asks you how you want your spaghetti cooked.

    I'll have mine extra extra al dente.
    Ed Fisher
    my chicago food photos

    RIP LTH.
  • Post #28 - August 5th, 2005, 3:30 pm
    Post #28 - August 5th, 2005, 3:30 pm Post #28 - August 5th, 2005, 3:30 pm
    gleam wrote:Spicy tuna rolls are just one step up from California Rolls, notorious for using Krab.. so I'm not sure that's such a stretch

    I really do like the pasta analogy. You don't leave your pasta raw, but you don't overcook the heck out of it, either. There's a happy state in between where the pasta is just perfect. Medium rare. And no one ever asks you how you want your spaghetti cooked.

    I'll have mine extra extra al dente.



    Although I certainly agree that when it comes to Sushi, tuna rolls are basic, but being filled with something other than raw yellowfin? Well, I never....

    I too like the pasta analogy. But funny enough, not to long ago, at la cucina di donatella, I was asked how I wanted my ravioli done. Haven eaten there many times, and only asked once my preference of doneness, I have to assume it was the result of the man in front of us who I watched send his pasta back THREE times, while I enjoyed my wine and Insalata Di Polipo
    “An empty stomach is not a good political advisor.”
    Albert Einstein
  • Post #29 - August 25th, 2005, 10:20 am
    Post #29 - August 25th, 2005, 10:20 am Post #29 - August 25th, 2005, 10:20 am
    Cathy2 wrote:I'm really peeved when the waiter dutifully writes down rare or medium-rare, then delivers a medium hamburger. So I have gotten proactive, "If I order a rare hamburger, will it be rare or will it be what your kitchen decides is better for me: medium?" If I hear medium, then I find something else for dinner. An honest answer on the server's side will save all us grief, time and money.


    I may have written earlier that I prefer well done but I am also for whatever the person wants. That is wrong that they bring you the medium when you ask for rare. If they are not going to do it for whatever reason they should just tell you.
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  • Post #30 - August 25th, 2005, 10:54 am
    Post #30 - August 25th, 2005, 10:54 am Post #30 - August 25th, 2005, 10:54 am
    I grew up in a family of Eastern Europeans, who all seem to have a fondness for cooking everything to death and then some. My mother is the worst culprit of this bunch. (God bless her, she actually is a very good cook, but I don't trust her on roast or grilled meats.) She was convinced that, no matter what, pork tenderloin will always be dry and always requires a lot of sauce to cover this defect up. I was absolutely astonished when, while learning to cook myself, I discovered this was indeed not the case if you knew how to prepare it: enough so its cooked through but with a tinge of pink inside. One of my favorite dishes now is a simple pork tenderloin encrusted in crushed fennel, black pepper, and salt. A little gravy on the side, perhaps, but not necessary. Both juicy and tasty.

    As for convincing people, I think people like my mother are beyond change. My brother prepares the steak for her, since he is the king of marinades, and I find them pretty much essential for making well-done steak edible. Myself, I'm a sprinkle of salt-and-pepper kind of guy, for the most part.

    However, I did manage to lure a girlfriend of mine away from the Dark Side. We were having a cook out on the banks of the Danube (she's Hungarian) with a couple of folks, and she insisted on having well done steaks (as is usually the case out in Hungary). Somehow, we ended up with all the steaks no done more than medium rare. Not wanting to waste a steak we paid good money for, she bit into it. Her hesitant look of disgust turned to pure delight: "Wow! How did you make this steak so tender!? It's wonderful!" "That's what happens when you buy good meat and don't cook the life out of it." Since then, she has always been a medium-rare girl. I'm proud.

    My brother and cousin, too, are beginning to come over to the Medium Rare Side. I've got my cousin as far as medium (he's a lover of sushi/sashimi, so I'm surprised he doesn't like his meat rare), and my brother actually does enjoy good cuts of beef medium rare, from time to time.

    My problem with well-done steaks are they just don't taste like MEAT. The red juices just have this overwhelmingly beefy flavor that's fantastic. I don't understand why people want to cook this flavor out. Also, the texture of medium-rare meat is much more satisfying than the grainy chewiness of well-done. It's not that all well-done steaks are tough--many can be prepared to a decent tenderness. It's just that they're grainy.

    Another problem is the quality of beef. If you've ever had a mediocre cut of medium-rare steak, I wouldn't be surprised that you cook the living daylights out of it. That was one problem in Hungary--it was difficult to find a good grilling cut. You had to tenderize every cut of steak except filet. In this sort of environment, it's no wonder people were taught to eat beef fully cooked. It was next to impossible to eat rare steak--it just didn't break down from all the chewing.

    Imagine trying to eat sushi, if all you know of fish is those crappy little filets you get in Dominicks.

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