Bread making

My question is simple: how do you make light, semi-airy bread?

Every time I make bread or pizza it's very dense, focaccia style. And it is very good stuff. There's definitely a time and a place for that, but there's so much more out there. But every recipe I've ever tried pretty much yields the same results, and yes I have a clay baker, but the main benefit is the flaky exterior--it only gives you a minimal amount of air inside. And I have a 600 dollar KitchenAid at my disposal, although I always found the old spoon and hands to be much simpler for the quick process of making dough.

So, if any of you can help me out with a recipe and some techniques for some French/Italian style bread that gives you the interior results I'm looking for, it would be appreciated.

I'm looking for the kind of bread you'd get hot out of the oven at an Italian restaurant. The outside is crusty and floury and the inside has the give of a sponge, with a whispy texture.

The recipe I use normally is:

3 cups a-p flour
1 cup 110 degree water
1 T e.v. olive oil
1 t rapid rise yeast
1 t sugar
1 t salt

Basically mix all together, knead, add flour as needed, form nice ball, grease lightly with oil, cover with towel, let rise.

It sounds like you aren't letting the dough rise enough. You don't mention punching down the dough and letting it rise a second time. Do you do a second rise? That might help.

I find this sequence works well.

Rise
Punch down
second rise
shape into loaves
final rise (15 or 20 minutes)
Bake

Three of my favorite bread book are:

The Tasssajara Bread Book
Beard on Bread
NY Times Bread and Soup Cookbook.

With my 1953 Joy of Cooking as a back up.

Yeah, I punch down and all that, just omitted some details. I've been doing it for years.

It's just that all my bread is the same. It's good but wtf? How do they do it at bakeries?

Here's a parm reg and herb loaf I made:



I used a clay baker. As you can see it's a little on the dense side.

Here's a pizza:


This I actually made the night before because I had a surplus of materials so I whipped it together, froze it and reheated, then cut it in 16ths for appetizers on Christmas.

Same bread recipe there. Probably works better for pizza. Nice and sturdy, chewy texture, cornmeal bottom.

I haven't tried all the breads yet, but the best book I've found is Peter Reinhart's the Breadmakers Apprentice. Most of the breads your talking about are made with various types of sponges that take two days to put together. I have made challe and bagels as well as a few others from the book and one of the breads that uses a "biga" and works overnight. I have never used a book that if you follow his directions exactly (knead for 6 minutes by machine and the dough will be 80 degrees) it will be what he says it is. Try some of his breads they may be what your looking for.
Paulette

I'm not sure I really understand your question. Perhaps you wouldn't mind outlining your process in more detail and I'm sure I and others would be happy to offer ideas on how you might tweak it.

In the meantime, here are my basic thoughts.

1) if you always use the same recipe and you always get the same results, that's a good thing. You're consistent.

2) the type of flour you use affects the results more than one might think. Try a hard wheat (bread) flour and not all purpose.

3) salt kills yeast. Be sure to add salt to the flour before mixing with the yeast'

4) try making a sponge or be sure to proof the yeast first

5) how long you let bread rise is important, too long or too short will drastically affect results

6) if the dough is too soft, you could get a very dense or coarse texture.

7) is your oven temperature accurate? invest in a good oven thermometer and bake at the temp. called for in the recipe, ignore your oven's temp control dial and go by the thermometer.

the loaf in your photo looks good. The crumb looks even, it looks baked through, the top hasn't cracked or separated or dented. Try a different recipe if you want a different bread.

I've been meaning to use bread flour instead of ap. I never have yet.

This is exactly what I do, so you know:

ap, rapid rise yeast, salt sugar, oil and water go into a bowl at once and I mix, then knead and grease lightly. Then I cover with a towel, let rise for an hour, punch down, then let rise a little longer.

-I do use a thermometer. Baking always requires a second opinion.

-I know that the same recipe will yield the same results, but the thing is pretty much every recipe I've ever done has yielded roughly the same dense, chewy bread.

-To my knowledge, rapid rise doesn't need to be proofed.

Ok, if you keep getting the same results you need to change something drastic.

I recommend changing your yeast AND the way you mix it with the flour.

Stop using rapid rise and use regular yeast. Make sure it is fresh, at room temperature and proof it first in water of the proper temperature. Then mix the remaining dry ingredients and incorporate them into the yeast mixture.

Weigh your flour instead of measuring it so any variations in moisture content are controlled for.

If that doesn't work, try tweaking the amount of sugar. I don't think you have enough for bread but it might be fine for pizza dough.

If you want a french-type bread, increase the water but leave the sugar alone.

Hope this helps.

One last thought.

Throw your back into kneading that dough. Knead for a good 10 minutes to develop the gluten. Don't incorporate too much flour during this step.

I don't overflour when kneading. I like it to be grippy but not sticky.

I saw a 24 hour no-knead that looked fantastic. Throw it into a preheated Dutch oven at 500 degrees and it comes out with a caramelized crust and lots of nice holes in the middle.

But does awesome bread have to take a day to make? I'll have to look into one of the aforementioned cookbooks I guess.

There's an entire thread on no-knead bread on this forum.

I am officially out of ideas. You need to experiment more and report back on what you learned.

Well, I just made the best loaf of bread in my life by about a mile. I went with Mark Bittman's no knead.

A nice sturdy, honey brown crust with a perfect, holey crumb inside and a wonderfully rich flavor. Just like it appears in the video. I've never had a better bread smell emanate from my stove either.

Here are some more guidelines:

FIVE FACTORS TO GET YOUR BREAD TO RISE

Thanks Laz. That will be useful.

I've made a few loaves of the NKB already. It's unreal.



Holes for all!

Also, the crust is much more honey than blond as it appears there. I have a cheap camera.

Just a few thoughts from someone who bakes a loaf a week:

Diannie wrote:Stop using rapid rise and use regular yeast. Make sure it is fresh, at room temperature and proof it first in water of the proper temperature. Then mix the remaining dry ingredients and incorporate them into the yeast mixture.

In general, there is no need to stop using rapid rise (aka instant) yeast. I love instant yeast. It has more active yeast cells than regular (active dry) yeast. It does not need to be proofed in water first. Since it has more active yeast cells, it can sometimes rise faster than similar dough made with active dry yeast. Since the rising period is when the bread develops flavor, many people like to retard the dough (i.e. stick in the fridge overnight) or use a sponge (i.e. mix the yeast, water, and half the flour and let that sit in the fridge overnight before proceeding).

Weigh your flour instead of measuring it so any variations in moisture content are controlled for.

It is always a good idea to measure flour by weight.

If you want a french-type bread, increase the water but leave the sugar alone.

If I recall, most traditional french breads don't have sugar added (isn't there a saying about the purity of flour, water, salt, and yeast?). My weekly sourdough doesn't have any sugar, but I do add it to challah and pizza dough. The AB recipe below includes honey.

A one hour rise seems a little on the short side, but it really depends on the temperature of the room. If your room is 75 degrees, a 60-90 minute rise is probably fine. My house is more like 68-71 degrees and that really slows down the process. A lot of people go by the standard of letting the dough double in bulk.

The way to get really airy dough is to have a higher proportion of water to flour. Also, don't knock too much of the air out of the dough before you shape the loafs.

As someone said above, salt inhibits the activity of yeast. Generally this means that you want to add the salt after you've let the yeast get started.

Here is a great, easy recipe courtesy of Alton Brown:
http://www.foodnetwork.com/food/recipes ... 63,00.html

Darren72

Thanks for your thoughts. I suggested using regular yeast because the OP seemed to keep producing the same bread no matter what was tried. Actually I made a bunch of suggestions operating on the principal that "if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you always got."

It seemed that changing any major component of the recipe would yield a different result. Hence my suggestions to alter the proportion of water to flour, change the yeast, weigh the flour or watch out about how and when the salt is added.

Eliminating sugar is a good idea, too.

Personally I prefer a bread with a denser texture and fine crumb so I tend toward whole wheat breads and often substitute wheat germ for some flour. I also tinker with cornmeal and use honey, dry milk, herbs or other additives depending on what I feel like eating that day. Sometimes I weigh the flour but I'm just as likely to use a measuring cup as I mix by feel more than anything. I think it is just too hard to use words to get across exactly how a dough should feel when it's ready. For me, that came from experience.

Still, I do agree that rising time is really important and I rarely actually "time" the rise prefering to note how big the dough gets. For example, the pizza dough I made Friday night usually takes about an hour to rise and that's what the recipe calls for. The kitchen must have been warm as it was doubled in about 45 minutes. Then I divided it into portions and did a second rise for about 20 minutes.

I hope the OP tries a "regular" bread again and lets us know if any of these changes makes a difference. I am glad the no knead came out so nicely.

Dianne, I agree with your point that if what she's doing isn't working, she should mix it up a little bit (no pun intended). Sorry if I misinterpreted your point about the yeast.

Just yesterday, as I wrote that post, I had a large batch of my favorite sourdough on its first rise. I've made this bread a lot and pretty much have the recipe and technique down. But yesterday it wouldn't rise. I usually give it 3-4 hours, but yesterday I let it go about 8 hours before moving on to the shaping and retardation stages. Just goes to show that bread dough can be finicky and unpredictable.

The biggest improvement in my bread came from discovering the combination of raw wheat germ and white bread flour. Glad you mentioned this! I don't know why, but I get a much better taste, texture, and crust by doing this, compared to a mixture of white and whole wheat flour.

I would not underestimate the composition of the main ingredient, the flour, in the ultimate texture and flavor of the crumb and crust. We often think of flour differences only in terms of protein content or whole grain vs. white. But there are many more factors involved (ash content, falling number, etc.) that can make a big difference. Bread in France is unlike much of the bread in this country because a great deal of attention is paid to the composition of the flour.

I recently lost my source for my favorite bread flour (Giustos Artisan) and spent a lot of effort trying other flours, but could never get the same results. Fortunately, it is now back in stock and my breads are back to the same quality. For the baguettes I make (high-hydration, all natural starter, steam-injected) it really does make a difference.

Bill/SFNM

Diannie wrote:Darren72

Thanks for your thoughts. I suggested using regular yeast because the OP seemed to keep producing the same bread no matter what was tried. Actually I made a bunch of suggestions operating on the principal that "if you always do what you've always done, you'll always get what you always got."

It seemed that changing any major component of the recipe would yield a different result. Hence my suggestions to alter the proportion of water to flour, change the yeast, weigh the flour or watch out about how and when the salt is added.

Eliminating sugar is a good idea, too.

Personally I prefer a bread with a denser texture and fine crumb so I tend toward whole wheat breads and often substitute wheat germ for some flour. I also tinker with cornmeal and use honey, dry milk, herbs or other additives depending on what I feel like eating that day. Sometimes I weigh the flour but I'm just as likely to use a measuring cup as I mix by feel more than anything. I think it is just too hard to use words to get across exactly how a dough should feel when it's ready. For me, that came from experience.

Still, I do agree that rising time is really important and I rarely actually "time" the rise prefering to note how big the dough gets. For example, the pizza dough I made Friday night usually takes about an hour to rise and that's what the recipe calls for. The kitchen must have been warm as it was doubled in about 45 minutes. Then I divided it into portions and did a second rise for about 20 minutes.

I hope the OP tries a "regular" bread again and lets us know if any of these changes makes a difference. I am glad the no knead came out so nicely.

I'm gonna get started on a dough pretty soon, probably gonna make a thin crust pizza out of it.

I will cease and desist on the sugar and I will use room temp yeast from now on. In the past I've always scooped it out of the jar that I kept in the fridge.

On that note, do you have to refrigerate yeast?

Zoso wrote:On that note, do you have to refrigerate yeast?

You don't have to refrigerate dry yeast, but it will last longer if stored in the fridge. Fresh yeast, on the other hand, needs to be kept cold and even then it only lasts about 2 weeks.

Just to be clear, I don't think anyone was saying you have to lose the sugar. My point earlier was that the most basic bread recipe just includes flour, salt, water, and yeast. But there are certainly many recipes that include sugar. The best advice I can think of is to just try different recipes until you find one that works for you. This is easier than trying to improvise.

FWIW, here's the ingredient list for my thin crust pizza dough

1C warm water
1T dry yeast
2 1/2 to 3 C flour
2T olive oil
1/2t salt

I make this with a dough hook on a stand mixer.

Dissolve yeast in water, blend in 1 1/2C flour. With mixer on 2 gradually add remaining ingredients and knead according to machine instructions.

Make sure you are developing the gluten properly. Gluten gives bread dough dough stretchability and strength. The more developed the gluten is, the bigger the holes will be able to grow in the bread as it rises and bakes, because the walls of the holes can stretch without breaking. An under-developed dough results in a denser end product with smaller holes, because they collapsed due to a lack of gluten. Gluten also helps to achieve that nice chew that people look for in a good, rustic loaf of bread.

To test, take a small piece of the dough you have been kneading, and while turning it in your fingers, gradually and very sloooooowly stretch it out. Similar to stretching out a pizza crust. See how thin it gets before it rips, and a hole forms. it should get thin enough so that you can hold it up to newspaper print and read the print. The term "windowpane" is used to describe this. After a while you will get a good feel for this.

Also, fat will shorten your dough(meaning prevent the gluten from developing, or cutting through it), making a denser product. I'm not sure that the amount you are using makes a difference, but it may. Ingredients containing fat, like cheese, may also have this effect.

What others have said about the type of flour you should use is true, too. In order of protein content, highest to lowest, the types of flours go: Whole Wheat, Bread, All Purpose, Pastry, and Cake. Generally the higher the protein content, the stronger the gluten will be. Whole wheat flour is different, because even though it has a high protein content, the hard pieces of wheat bran in the flour shorten the dough by cutting through the gluten strands.

The type of yeast you use won't make a difference in the airiness of the bread, I don't think. However using a homemade starter or poolish might change things.

As far as moisture goes, I was taught that there should not be too little or too much water. gently press the dough against the top of your hand, and it should feel like healthy moist lips. Not wet lips. And it definitely should not stick. Too much water will also serve to inhibit gluten development.

Making sure the dough rises properly both times is another factor that will determine the airiness of your product. Times vary, but the dough needs to double each time. Another test to make sure the dough has risen properly is to dip a finger in flour, then poke your dough, going in two to three inches. If the hole your finger makes stays, the dough is ready. If the hole immediately starts to fill back in, the dough is not ready. Don't do the finger test after the second rise, because you want to be very careful not to let any air escape between this time and the actual baking. Make sure the loaves are completely formed before the second rise. right before baking, slash the dough to allow steam to escape and give the finished product a nice look. Note that overproofing your dough means that the yeast converted too much sugar into alcohol, and will give the finished product a yucky alcoholic flavor.

If you want a rustic floured look, very lightly dust the loaves of dough with flour directly before baking.

Allow the bread to cool completely before cutting into it.

Note- that loaf of no knead dough you made looks good on the inside, but it doesn't have the nice smooth crust that a well kneaded loaf of bread has. I wonder, does the finished product have a nice chew to it like a kneaded loaf would have as a result of gluten development?

I hope no one minds me bumping up this really old post.

I baked a doorstop today. And was thinking about turning it into bread pudding. What do you think, would that work? The bread is cooked, has a tough crust, and is flat. Can I still chop it up and use it for bread pudding or should I just throw it away?

Since we are gluten-free, all of our bread is a door-stop, lol. The yeast can't work as well because of the missing gluten, causing bread to rise much less than a gluten loaf.

My point? I make bread pudding and it's delicious. I can't say I've ever tried it with failed gluten bread, but it works fine with gluten-free bread...they seem similar to me, lol.

What's the worst that can happen? You waste a few eggs and some milk and enjoy some time in the kitchen. The best? You are enjoying the warm deliciousness in a an hour or so. I know what I'd do! I mean, how bad could it be?????

bnowell724 wrote:Make sure you are developing the gluten properly. Gluten gives bread dough dough stretchability and strength. The more developed the gluten is, the bigger the holes will be able to grow in the bread as it rises and bakes, because the walls of the holes can stretch without breaking. An under-developed dough results in a denser end product with smaller holes, because they collapsed due to a lack of gluten. Gluten also helps to achieve that nice chew that people look for in a good, rustic loaf of bread.

To test, take a small piece of the dough you have been kneading, and while turning it in your fingers, gradually and very sloooooowly stretch it out. Similar to stretching out a pizza crust. See how thin it gets before it rips, and a hole forms. it should get thin enough so that you can hold it up to newspaper print and read the print. The term "windowpane" is used to describe this. After a while you will get a good feel for this.

Also, fat will shorten your dough(meaning prevent the gluten from developing, or cutting through it), making a denser product. I'm not sure that the amount you are using makes a difference, but it may. Ingredients containing fat, like cheese, may also have this effect.

What others have said about the type of flour you should use is true, too. In order of protein content, highest to lowest, the types of flours go: Whole Wheat, Bread, All Purpose, Pastry, and Cake. Generally the higher the protein content, the stronger the gluten will be. Whole wheat flour is different, because even though it has a high protein content, the hard pieces of wheat bran in the flour shorten the dough by cutting through the gluten strands.

The type of yeast you use won't make a difference in the airiness of the bread, I don't think. However using a homemade starter or poolish might change things.

As far as moisture goes, I was taught that there should not be too little or too much water. gently press the dough against the top of your hand, and it should feel like healthy moist lips. Not wet lips. And it definitely should not stick. Too much water will also serve to inhibit gluten development.

Making sure the dough rises properly both times is another factor that will determine the airiness of your product. Times vary, but the dough needs to double each time. Another test to make sure the dough has risen properly is to dip a finger in flour, then poke your dough, going in two to three inches. If the hole your finger makes stays, the dough is ready. If the hole immediately starts to fill back in, the dough is not ready. Don't do the finger test after the second rise, because you want to be very careful not to let any air escape between this time and the actual baking. Make sure the loaves are completely formed before the second rise. right before baking, slash the dough to allow steam to escape and give the finished product a nice look. Note that overproofing your dough means that the yeast converted too much sugar into alcohol, and will give the finished product a yucky alcoholic flavor.

If you want a rustic floured look, very lightly dust the loaves of dough with flour directly before baking.

Allow the bread to cool completely before cutting into it.

Note- that loaf of no knead dough you made looks good on the inside, but it doesn't have the nice smooth crust that a well kneaded loaf of bread has. I wonder, does the finished product have a nice chew to it like a kneaded loaf would have as a result of gluten development?

Did you use baking flour? My MIL used that with the no knead method and it did not rise much, but was still tasty.

I'm not a bread expert by any means (I have the opposite problem from the OP where I can never get the same result twice. the results are usually reasonably tasty anyway, so I've just decided to enjoy the process and not get hung up on a specific goal.)

but to reiterate one of bnowell724's points: make sure to slash the top of your bread before putting it in the oven. It's amazing how much it will open up. Also, typically a wetter dough will result in a more open, hole-y interior.

I've just begun my bread-baking adventures using Reinhart's "Bread Baker's Apprentice". I like his explanations of formulas, recipes, and all the steps in the process. He does an excellent job of explaining the "why" behind the "how".

I've made a couple different attempts at his basic french bread. I'm getting good rise out of my dough and all seems well at the baking outset. My first attempt resulted in a weak top crust, my second attempt resulted in an overdone bottom crust. But, the crust isn't my chief concern.

Overall, I'm disappointed in the high density and lack of elasticity of the crumb. My instinct says that I'm suffering from a lack of sufficient kneading, since the rise of the dough seems more than enough. I'm following his instructions for time, temperature, and dough tests when it comes to kneading, but I'm disappointed with the results. Any thoughts? Do I just need to work it harder?

Yesterday's boule: more here

I would try reducing the kneading and possibly increasing the hydration if you want bigger holes.

i dunno, those pictures look pretty good to me. have you tried to retard the rise in the fridge overnight? it seems like breads i have done that with tend to have more of an open/irregular crumb.

Try making the Pain a la Ancienne from the Reinhart book. I made it this weekend for the 2nd time. My first effort was tasty, but did not have the light, hole-y texture that I was hoping for. I made it again this weekend, stirring everything together Friday nite and letting it rest in the refrigerator until Sunday. After it came back to room temperature, I folded it lightly about once an hour until it had doubled. I'm also baking on a newly purchased pizza stone, which seems to hold the oven temperature really well.

These loaves were picture perfect -- and tasted great, if I do say so myself. The refrigerator rest really improves the taste and texture.