Hi,

Salesman vs Repairman

When I bought a dishwasher a few years ago, the salesman said I didn't need to scrape off my dishes too much, because the built-in disposal would deal with any solid matter.

A few months after installing it, some debris caused a dishwasher shutdown. The grumpy repairman complained I needed to scrape off the dishes better. I then relayed my conversation with the salesman. My statement had enough of a ring of truth that the repairman said this overselling this feature often happens. He said I should go back to scraping off as much food and not rely on this disposal.

I scrape off my dishes and haven't had a problem since with any shutdown.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Were I to buy a new dishwasher today, I would opt for one with the grinder (I have a Meile now, which has no grinder). While I scrape and rinse my dishes, and regularly rinse out the drain screen, there are still times it shuts down. As I said earlier, it is a real pain to deal with when it happens. The dirty water is gross and a pain to bail, the parts are hard to access on my machine...and all is made worse if the water has any grease in it. You can't get a grip on anything.

I'm not saying that a grinder would mean you'd never have problems, but next time around I will get a DW with one, just so I know it's there as a backup. Something as small as an unpopped popcorn kernel or a piece of nut has on multiple occasions shut my dishwasher down. I dislike having to be so vigilant about what goes in there. I don't know if all European models are this fussy but I do know I would never get a Meile DW again.

Jeez, tavogels, I've had two Hobart/Kitchen Aid dishwashers (I don't know about their having grinders or not) over the last 35 years, and haven't had either one get stuck on food, ever. In fact, the only problem I've *ever* had was when a chunk of broken wine glass stuck the exit valve open.

H/KA are just flat-out great dishwashers.

Geo

Geo wrote:
H/KA are just flat-out great dishwashers.

Geo

Tell that to my 1.5 year old $1000 KitchenAide dishwasher that now makes a loud buzzing noise when the cycle is running

aaaaaargh!
The appliance hunt is driving me nuts. Just when I tihnk I have the perfect plan, a new curveball gets thrown. My current dillema is this food grinder feature. Was planning to w/ all Electrolux (attractive rebate - buy more, rebate is worth more) BUT with the current Sears offer (15% off any appliances,) then, Kitchenaid, and Ge Monogram are in our sights. Original thought was to buy all electrolux, and a different maker fridge since elolux does not offer a fridge we want. NOW we come across the food grinder feature for the DW (elolux has no food grinder.) The Sears offer does not include elolux, or else this might be an easier choice. Sears offer ends Wed. Aaaaaargh!

So, now, we have to choose
Plan 1: All elolux except the Fridge (and only if the food grinder feature on the dw is no big deal)

Plan2: All Kitchenaid - They make everything we'd want (They make a fridge we'd want, and dw with food grinder,) but the "cool" factor is not as high as elolux IMO.

Plan 3: All Ge Monogram. Looks great, but the price might not match up to performance expectations.

Plan 4: Mix and match everything.

P.S. for anyone "looking," Grants has FCI (Fulgor) 36 inch 5 burner gas cooktops for like 560.00 on closeout. Last Saturday, the clerk showed me the screen with qty avail being 140. The FCI double oven was also closeout priced.

HI,

I would mix and match buying the best appliance for every job, because you will curse yourself if it looks great and behaves bad later. If they are all stainless steel or whatever your scheme is, they will still look suitable.

I bought my dishwasher and cooktop from Plass Appliance close-outs in Addison. I bought my refrigerator via Craigslist. My microwave and toaster via e-Bay.

Regards,

seebee wrote:Plan2: All Kitchenaid - They make everything we'd want (They make a fridge we'd want, and dw with food grinder,) but the "cool" factor is not as high as elolux IMO.

We get positive comments on our full KitchenAid kitchen from the 3% of people who come over who give a crap about things like that. The other 97% don't comment, notice or care

After coming from a condo with a full Whirlpool Gold kitchen, I can't say our food tastes any better, is maintained at cold temperature any better, or that our dishes are any cleaner with the KitchenAid stuff.

Try not to overthink it too much

Jamie

I would mix and match buying the best appliance for every job, because you will curse yourself if it looks great and behaves bad later. If they are all stainless steel or whatever your scheme is, they will still look suitable.

I totally agree with this. Not sure why one would compromise performance, or possibly pay a higher price for the sake of matching appliances. My kitchen has a range, refrigerator and dischwasher from 3 different manufacturers, all stainless steel and no one notices the difference.

My Bosch dishwasher does not have a food grinder and has not clogged in 4 years, but I do scrape and rinse pretty throughly befroe putting dishes in.

I still don't see the appeal of stainless steel appliances. They show fingerprints, dirt, scuffs, etc. etc.

Give me white. In fact, I bought white whenever I could: Fridge, freezer, dishwashers, double oven, sinks... but for gourmet-type cooktops, none of the companies (Thermador, Viking, Wolf...) make white. Same with my hood -- few companies even make an island hood, and they charge three to five times that of a wall-mounted one, and they're all stainless.. and show grease and grime, and are a real pain to clean without showing a buff pattern.

I love my Thermador, but give me enamel!

rickster wrote:

I would mix and match buying the best appliance for every job, because you will curse yourself if it looks great and behaves bad later. If they are all stainless steel or whatever your scheme is, they will still look suitable.

I totally agree with this. Not sure why one would compromise performance, or possibly pay a higher price for the sake of matching appliances. My kitchen has a range, refrigerator and dischwasher from 3 different manufacturers, all stainless steel and no one notices the difference.

I agree with both of you, but in the price range we're looking at - there aren't too many huge differences in quality, PLUS with the elolux rebate, more elolux=more savings. I guess we just have to jump into the pool, and hope it's not too cold. It'll probably turn out to be elolux oven, hood, and cooktop + kitchenaid dw, and fridge. If we decide the food grinder isn't needed in the dw, we'll go with an elolux since the rebate will be worth more, and it'll be the same as any other euro dw - (steel tub, no grinder, no heater for drying - but high marks for being quiet)

My Bosch doesn't have a grinder. I go and look at the screen every now and again and never see anything in it (they say to clean it out now and again since it traps anything bigger than about a pencil tip).

we had kitchenaid architect series in the condo we just sold... we could have picked anything but it seemed like a good slightly above mid range line... they also make one of the narrower side by sides of any manufacturer and we were limited by that too...

i really miss the stove from that series already ... almost as much as the jenn-air slide in downdraft with a grill on it that i bought and put into my first place... (though i rent that place now, we just had to have someone come out and replace the entire electrical board in that stove... good thing for credit cards extending warranty it was all covered)

as far as dishwashers...i agree salespeople oversell the hard food grinder. when purchasing a dishwasher for my first place, i was told i could just dump a load of ribs in and the dishwasher would take care of the rest. uh huh, sure.

...and as far as stainless steel showing fingerprints, dirt, scuffs... i think this is either outdated info or just not true. i've had stainless steel in my last two places and never thought "oh my god, i can see fingerprints" ... i think this partly might have to do with the technology of stainless steel... maybe there's some sort of coating on appliances now... but besides, if you have dirt on your appliances, maybe it's time to clean them.

also, if you're mixing and matching appliances, to me there's more consistency in the overall look of mixing stainless steel versus mixing white appliances...

jenn air or viking or someone are starting to make higher end white appliances that are a glossy glass look, they're really sharp. but that's going to be impossible to mix and match

I strongly recommend you read this thread on ChefTalk:

http://www.cheftalk.com/forums/cooking- ... -home.html

Pay close attention to the posts by "Boar_D_Laze" He is a retired chef and now food writer and his numerous, detailed posts on all sorts of technical topics command great respect from the members, many of whom are culinary professionals.

By the way, when we did the complete, to-the-studs remodel of the condo four years ago, we hired a kitchen-and-bath specialist architect and spent two months planning the layout and shopping for the appliances. My son's cabinet shop built most of the kitchen and built-ins (I built several, including the 8-foot tall pull-out pantry, which has $200 worth of drawer slides in it. ) I got 14 square feet of shelf in one foot of cabinet length, but have to admit that it's hard to find a particular item if it's not right up front.

We are extremely happy with our Bosch D/W, which we cannot hear running. No clogging problems, though we do scrape pretty well. Cleans like a dream. It's the model to which you attach a panel that matches your cabinets, with the concealed controls running along the top edge of the door. It is very cool.

Also very cool - looking- is our GE Profile glass cooktop. We can't have gas, so got thie completely plain top. It's black and looks great on our black granite counter. As a stove, it stinks. You can't judge what temperature you're getting, despite ten or eleven heat-control levels, and even though I spent about $65 for an infra-red thermometer. It also requires constant, obsessive cleaning, becahse any spill or spatter
will cook onto the surface unless it's immediately removed. It's so bad we paid for a service call; the guy spent 50 minutes working every control on the thing and finally said "It's working just like it's supposed to!" He seemed a little emabarres and only charged us the service-call minimum.

Definitely shop at ABT

Thanks for all of the input -

Sears had a 20% off rebate, and yesterday we purchased a Kitchenaid Dw, Kitchenaid French Door fridge, and an Electrolux Icon oven. Cooktop and hood will more than likely be the regular electrolux brand, and we'll purchase later, maybe from Grant's. Since those two items were excluded from the sears rebate, we plan on buying them at Grant's since the sales rep there was so helpful. (Also- we're holding out hope on finding another cooktop that might meet our requirements somewhere else on a sale/floor model price etc...Got the fingers crossed.)

LOL -

Well, after a thoroughly exhaustive go around or two with City Hall, the demo starts tomorrow. (You really don't wanna know. Suffice it to say, you can't fight city hall, and they are all criminals. I DEFINITELY chose the wrong business.) So, we were down to the cooktop, and hood. Bought a SS Kitchenaid 36' gas with the protective coating which appears to really help with resisting scratches. (Performed my own personal in store testing ) So now, we're down to a hood. Just thought I'd ask a few opinions on price vs quality if anyone has one. I think my max will be 1500 bux, but that's gotta be just a stellar unit. I'm really looking for under 1200. Leaning towards a Zephyr Roma or Savona for value. 600 cfm minimum if you have anything, or know of a value brand. Thanks in advance - and if anyone is looking for appliances out there, I have learned, over the past 6 months, just about everything you need to know, and will be happy to give advice. I think I know more than most appliance salespeople at this point. Really.

seebee wrote:I think I know more than most appliance salespeople at this point. Really.

I believe you. I always do research before buying an appliance. Too often I ask a question which stumps the salesman. I usually end up calling the factory to get the straight poop.

I once had an authorized Sub Zero refrigerator repairman ready to rip my head off. He proposed a repair that didn't feel right to me. I called Sub Zero's chief repair coordinator inquiring if what he suggested was reasonable. He didn't like it either, then contacted our serviceman. When he returned to repair it, I was not home. My family said he arrived very angry, repaired it and kept inquiring when I was going to be home. Fortunately it was a few more years before I needed more work done, so whatever confrontation might have happened never came to be.

I have lived in my house for too many years. The only original kitchen appliance is our vent over the stove. I am not even sure if it does its job all that well. However it does send the odors outside for my neighbors to enjoy. It is the only proof I know it is doing something.

Regards,

seebee wrote:I think my max will be 1500 bux, but that's gotta be just a stellar unit. I'm really looking for under 1200. Leaning towards a Zephyr Roma or Savona for value. 600 cfm minimum if you have anything, or know of a value brand.

Have you looked at the Broans? They have one (think it is the Elite) that has the motor in the cabinet above the hood. The prices for Broans tend to be more reasonable.

I'm sure you have already done this, but the Appliances forum at Gardenweb.com has a ton of discussions about hoods, what they like and what they don't. I got a lot of good advice from there.

I went with a Broan Allure III which goes up to 450 cfm. It is a little noisy at 450 cfm if you want to compare noise levels. Good luck on the hood thing since that turned out to be the most complicated part of my kitchen. Which...was just finished yesterday after only two weeks of work! Don't hate me for my quick remodel! Good luck on yours.

We did an Electrolux gas range and a kitchenaid KUDM series dishwasher with the top silverware tray. I had been eying the Miele silverware tray for literally years but ended up going with a dishwasher with a grinder and hot air drying, and I have to say I'm glad I did. We already had a GE french door fridge which I love. Everything is white. I haven't used the Electrolux range for much other than heating water but this weekend I will be spending some quality time with it.

I've gotten my appliances from Young's of Glen Ellyn. I've had excellent recommendations and service from them. The last time I had them out the repair man said GE ranges and microwaves are good but the dishwashers are not the best. I purchased a high end GE Profile convection range some years ago and it really works well. What I don't like is some of the plastic parts on the stove, and the burners are a taupish color which I hate. So hard to keep clean...black is so much better. Beware of light grey or taupe burners.

The dishwasher was new in the house when I bought it, and was a GE profile and I had to get a part replaced for over a hundred dollars last year. The man said if it breaks down again (water would pool in the bottom) it is not worth fixing it. He said Whirlpool and Bosch were good dishwashers.

Anyway for what its worth.

I recently installed all new appliances (2 weeks ago) while not in the same league as what you are looking for, I installed the Zephyr 30" Hurricane under cabinet unit and am very happy with it. It is 695CFM (for less than $500)with great features. I have it over a Kitchenaid top of the line "Pro Style" Dual Fuel Range and have not had to set it past low speed as yet. IMHO the Zephyr line should be a serious contender.

There is a great message board that discusses kitchen remodels like everyone here discusses food and restaurants. I have learned a lot from that site.

someone mentioned this a ways back. i think they were referring to http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/, where people are, as stated, possibly even *more* obsessive about kitchen stuff than all of you here are about food.

i know it's hard to believe, but go read there awhile. you'll see. that site was invaluable to me during my recent kitchen remodel.

oh, and i'm a bit late to the party, but i'll toss out:

--*love* my bosch dw--never ever clogged or shut down--and i've owned two in two different homes over eight years.

--abt for appliances. the best. great service, great follow-through.

--to keep stainless from getting fingerprints or other marks, clean it with stainless polish and then wipe it down with a thin film of pledge or wd40. sounds weird, but it works.

I'm surprised when I hear people talk about fingerprints and such on SS. I use the Method wipes on all my appliances and they are fantastic. Never leaves a smudge. Easily purchased at Target.

Hi,

I am all ears on tips for keeping stainless steel looking good. Someone in the family recently cleaning spray on the refrigerator door. It looks like ghostly fireworks.

I will stop by Target to get those wipes today. I already have the WD-40.

Thanks!

Regards,

Cathy2 wrote:I am all ears on tips for keeping stainless steel looking good. I will stop by Target to get those wipes today.

I think it comes in a spray too. Some of their items have refills for the spray and if not, Method says they are working on this.

I like the Method line of products a lot. I have the granite cleaner and it really gets the granite shiny. I was going to try the Tub & Tile and Daily Shower since I just renovated the bathroom too.

The "Go Naked" All Purpose Cleaner is great. It has no scent and I can use it without gloves. This does not have a refill bottle yet but the spray bottles are good quality so you can keep and use for other things until this is available. They also have "Go Naked" all purpose wipes and dish soap too. I'm sensitive to fragrances so I appreciate this. The rest of their products, including the granite cleaner, have a moderate to heavy scent. I think the stainless steel and the granite cleaner have the same scent so at least they won't compete with each other.

I bought a plug-in Method fragrance and I did NOT like it. The plug in is heavy and filled with oil, and if it falls off the outlet you are looking at a major mess that might leave a stain. Why I bought this in the first place since I don't like fragrances is a bit of a mystery. That Method packaging sure is appealing....

Marshall K wrote: I installed the Zephyr 30" Hurricane under cabinet unit and am very happy with it. It is 695CFM (for less than $500)with great features.

Wow--that's a nice looking hood and a great price. Just went to the Abt site to check it out. I had to do white which left me with fewer options. Otherwise that would have been perfect for me. I'm a little jealous.

I have 30" range but I actually did a 36" hood centered over the range. It gives a little more breathing room and I like the way it looks so I was willing to sacrifice sone cabinet space.

When I was researching over at the Gardenweb appliance forum, I wrote down Zephyr, Modern Aire, Broan, and Kobe as the ones people seemed to like the most. Vent-a-Hood had people who really liked it or really didn't. The hood discussions were incredibly entertaining over there.

Method does make the SS spray, I have both, I just prefer the wipes because they don't leave any lint that paper towels sometimes do. And in full disclosure, I don't have any kids marking up the fridge every 10 seconds. I also use it on my porcelain range top, never leaves a streak. I also use the granite wipes.

Marshall K wrote:IMHO the Zephyr line should be a serious contender.

Thanks for a somewhat re-assuring response, MK. Zephyr is definitely the number 1 contender. For the price, it seems that the others all fall short. If the Zephyr models I'm looking at had more lighting, it would be a no brainer although I'm probably overthinking it. If I had to decide today, I would be confident in my choice of the Zephyr Savona. I've been through the garden web forum for every appliance so far, and Consumer Reports as well. Just looking for some other (free) data points to make an informed decision. how it turned out after the twists and turns:

KA dishwasher
Electrolux Icon 30" double wall oven
KA 36" stainless gas cooktop (with the protective coating - which I think might be WORTH the upcharge - and trust me, I don't do upcharges lightly. This was a BIG decision for me.)
KA 25' french door fridge
Hood = Zephyr Savona (749.00,) OR, if I have a change of heart, the Zephyr Venezia (1450.00)
Thanks all! And of course, any other replies are welcome.

Ps. Cathy2, once again, you've cracked me up!

seebee wrote:

Marshall K wrote:IMHO the Zephyr line should be a serious contender.

If the Zephyr models I'm looking at had more lighting, it would be a no brainer although I'm probably overthinking it.

Hood = Zephyr Savona (749.00,) OR, if I have a change of heart, the Zephyr Venezia (1450.00)

It looks like the Venezia have four halogens from the picture, but maybe the picture is misleading.
I've got two halogens in my hood and they are really bright. I'm sure your hood will be set higher than mine though. The lights in the Savona did look kind of set way to each side. I can see why you are obsessing. You could ask on Gardenweb if anyone is unhappy with the lighting, or try going to Abt to check it out. Not that you probably haven't already thought of all that....

What KA dishwasher did you get? Do you have the top silverware tray?

Grits, I phrased it wrong. I'm deciding between the Savona and the Roma (although I think the Savona would be the winner) BUT, if I decide to spend REAL $, then the Venezia seems to have it all for the price - if that makes any sense. I did not get the dw with the tray on top. It's a stainless steel front with a black control panel on the front.

seebee wrote:Grits, I phrased it wrong. I'm deciding between the Savona and the Roma (although I think the Savona would be the winner) BUT, if I decide to spend REAL $, then the Venezia seems to have it all for the price - if that makes any sense.

The Savona and Roma are both beautiful. The Roma, to me, has a little more of the wow factor. It's just got a really cool, different look. At the same time, the Savona is a little softer and more neutral and would probably work with more designs and styles while still being very cool.

Good luck. Believe me I sympathize with you....

oh, oh, oh!

Ok, so now we're on the same page, Grits!!
Listen to this though. The Savona is 685 cfm vs the 600 cfm of the Roma. Now which do you like more? Price is pretty much equal.