NFriday wrote:One of my sisters had a Bosch, and she got a lemon. She only had it for two years when it died on her. I am sure that the most she paid for it was $500. She got it because a friend of hers raved about her dishwasher. My Sister did not get another Bosch. It died on her right before Christmas, and so we were doing lots of dishes by hand that week.

A Bosh is not quite a Bosch if it is not made in Germany.
Many of the models are manufactured in the USA to what I would assume are different standards to explain the $500 Bosch to the $2000 Bosch made in Germany.
When I ordered ours, I spent some time with Bosch going over the specifications and manufacture.
It was quite evident that Bosch to reduce cost was somewhat trading on it’s name with USA production but I have don’t have a USA models so I can’t quantify the performance difference.
I do know that everything except the Baccarat and Steuben go into the Bosch and come out sparkling clean. They probably would also.
Even Point China by Reynaud but not the Bernardaud goes into the Bosch.
What I do know, is that more and more I seem to be turning to German manufactured products and in TV’s, Samsung.
-Richard

Our Bosch impresses me with its simplicity. For instance, the top rack rolls on rails, and you change its height by lifting it off one set of rails and setting it on another. None of the 10+ dishwashers I've used in the last 50 years ever did that so simply; most had elaborate cam mechanisms.

Our previous dw had a "chopper," and I replaced it entirely once; most often I cleaned it but had to do a lot of disassembling to do it. The Bosch has no such complexity.

For a few months this year we had a malfunctioning water heater, and I was reluctant to give up on it--I finally did, and we have a new one now--but in the meantime our Bosch often ran without the water being particularly hot. It worked just the same, and was quite hot when just completed, so it certainly heats water when it needs to.

All dishwashers need to be loaded properly to clean completely. The water jets need to be able to get into the dishes and mustn't be blocked by some dish that's been laid between the rotors and other dishes. With the Bosch particularly but also all other dws any upward-facing cavity, such as the bottom of a cup will still have some water in it. With the Bosch that water is always clean and just needs to dabbed off or sometimes just shaken.

ronnie_suburban wrote:This is why we went with a Bosch, which we really like. There's an easily-removable filter in the unit. Once a month, we take it out, knock its contents into the garbage and get on with our lives. I thought it would be a sacrifice not having a dedicated drying element but since running the dishwasher is usually the last thing we do before we head to bed for the evening, it hasn't been an issue. In the morning, everything's completely dry.

=R=

Hi,

I'm not convinced this is related to who made your dishwasher. I think there are some light maintenance or cleaning routines which many people never think to do.

I get their thinking, "Hey, it is washing every day. There is nothing to do." Even your washing machine needs cleaning, too. Ring around the collar can be ring around the tub.

Your removal and tapping off stuff clinging to the filter is something most people should do once a month or so. It has the added benefit of your looking into the machine and perhaps identifying something is wrong.

After my gunk adventures, I was quite motivated to keep up with stuff like cleaning the filter. It saved me from repeating an unpleasant task.

Regards,
Cathy2

When we bought our new condo, it had a Bosch already installed. Two years later, and our hatred of it hasn't abated. We just bought a Miele that will be installed this week.

As best I can tell, our Bosch was one of the lower-end models. On the plus side, it was quiet. On the negative side, everything else. I hated the layout of the racks, I hated the fact that we'd have food debris on our dishes, I hated it all.

I sure hope I love our new Miele (which is the top of the line stainless).

chgoeditor wrote:I hated the layout of the racks . . .

Issues like this are not necessarily manufacturer-specific. Many companies, including Bosch, Miele and several others offer models with different interior lay-outs.

=R=

Dishwasher time at the Seebee household again!
The old KA from upthread started acting up. The buttons are all flashing, some are dimly flashing...weird. But, F that thing. We've been living with it for like 7 years with no heat dry cycle for fear of it melting (yet again.) The board fried on it twice, the insides are melted. The repairman told us that the board fried twice and some of the guts are melted because nothing is shielded correctly for the heat in the drying cycle. So, after it was fixed the 2nd time, we just don't use the dryer anymore.

We're not getting whatever this new issue is fixed. F that thing. I'm not even against KA, but I will definitely have reservations. We'll pounce on something quickly for the President's Day sales, not sure what it'll be, yet, but I can't see spending over a G. The features on this KA seemed great at the time, but really, we've NEVER used them. Pro-scrub - maybe 4 times in 10 years, hi temp? Never. Sanitize, a few times back in the kid bottle days....I can honestly say half of the buttons are worthless to me.

Just checking if anyone has ideas on features that are great new (or old) concepts. I think we want a 3rd rack for utensils, adjustable racks, and a freekin timer. That's the important stuff. The Mrs is stuck on "quiet" and I know that's a thing that will cost a bit more. Any worthwhile features - like "A-HA" - that feature is great. Knaamean?

Hi,

For the last two-plus years, I have been using a KitchenAid labeled Fisher-Paykal dish drawer. I love how one drawer is getting filled with dishes while the other is washing. There are few excuses for dishes waiting to be loaded into the dishwasher.

Also no need for dish racks either, because you can hand wash and let it sit in a drawer to dry off.

I have contributed to three threads about my admiration for this dishwasher.

On regular wash, I have put in crusted lasagna baking dishes that came back sparkling clean. I have never used the heavily dirty dish mode, because regular did so well.

This model is not so quiet I am unaware it is working. It is certainly not a noise generator, either.

BTW - I do use the sani-rinse. My Dad calls my dishes sterilized. From the tone in his voice, it is not a compliment.

Regards,
Cathy2

Had a basic KA for 15 years until I moved. It did the job, nothing special. Noisy. No big problems, never ever even once used any of the special functions: put in the dishes, put in the soap (you MUST use good soap, I learned), pushed the Normal cycle.

Friends later got a Paykal-Fisher. Some nice features, but nothing as radically wonderful as their washer. OK but kinda pricey.

Other friends put in a Bosch SilencePlus. Wow. Just Wow. Remodelled my kitchen 4 yrs ago, put in the Bosch. Wow, just Wow all over again. I *love* this machine. You simply can't hear it run. Does a fine job, but v e r y s l o w l y but that's ok 'cuz you can't hear it. Won't ever have anything else fer shure.

Geo

+1 on the Bosch.
Went from a noisy so so cleaning KA to the top of the line Bosch SuperSilencePlus 39 dBA.
So quiet, I kept opening the door when it was running!
Magnificently clean glasses.
Slow as noted.
Bosch sells dishwashers both made in Germany and the USA.
German are the best and expensive.
Note: one can reprogram the annoying beeps at the end of cycle to 5 beeps and then silence.
-Richard

Good to know about the beeps budrichard. They *are* annoying! And yeah, the glassware absolutely sparkles.

Geo

Did a quick walkthrough of Best Buy late last night, just to look inside a few.
Bosch 500 / 300 is the front runner, but KA now makes a 39 db model or two which, coupled with the Costco perks (delivery, install haul-away included with the Costco price) makes the KA models contenders. Samsung has a 39 db model at Costco as well, so it's in the mix.

Main issue I'm stuck on with the KA that we saw:
The third rack is just a flat surface with a very thin opening, making it far less functional than the Bosch. The Bosch models highlight their competition's flaw by having a demo plastic bowl to test the 3rd rack (they probably hope you take the bowl out of theirs and test it in the competition's - well played, Herr (or frau) Bosch, well played.

My mission today is to return to Best Buy with a few utensils, like a spatula, and a ladle, to see if the top rack of the KA can handle anything besides silverware. There are other places in the KA to place big utensils, but, we tend to use ramekins, and small ice cream bowls for snacks and desserts up in here. That third rack could turn out to be useful for those, and over th course of ten years (fingers crossed) well worth an extra hundred bucks not to be annoyed by the KA's shallow top rack because of what we COULD have gotten.

First world problems up in here. The struggle is real, folks!

Keep us posted seebee, we're rootin' for you! : )

Geo

This is awesome! I'm in the market for a new dishwasher as well and it's great to have some hands on opinions from trusted folks!

Seebee, did you happen to see any issues between the many versions of the Bosch 300 line? Seems like personal preference but wasn't sure if anything was a major deterrent.

So, for my 3rd rack testing:

A Bosh 800 series, an LG, and a Samsung were the only models that were able to fit all of our test objects:

1. Spatula / Flipper
2. Ladle
3. Small snack bowl / ice cream dish
4. Round cereal bowl - think standard issue cereal bowl
5. Square top cereal bowl - tiny bit deeper/taller than standard issue, but not by much.

The Kitchenaids' 3rd racks were pretty much useless for anything except silverware. Ditto for the Whirlpool. They were exact same design. Same maker, I believe. I asked a salesperson if they knew of some reason why the Kitchenaid and Whirlpool 3rd rack design was so one dimensional, while competitor design added several different functions, and he had no answer. I just wonder if KA 3rd racks are like that in order to make some other part work better. I don't understand why. Admittedly, I'm probably just looking for reasons to NOT buy another KA after this last upper mid tier thing was a piece of junk. I mean, the first repairman told me pretty plainly it was junk. I specifically called him for the 2nd repair, because I dug his candor...no joke. He told me why it was junk, and that he knew it cost a pretty penny, and the features were alluring. He let me know to just stop using the heat dry and it would probably last a decent amt of time.

Ok, so, after a lil snooping on the web:
Bosch's 3rd rack design called the "My Way" rack is clearly head and shoulders taller than the rest. And guess what? You gotta pay. Hmmm, that's surprising

I haven't been able to pinpoint the deal with the ONE Samsung model that everything fit in. It was a 550.00 model which is kinda making me think it wasn't put together properly. When we tested, the rack seemed smooth enough, though.

Interesting though - the Bosch 300 and 500 series, the small bowl would fit, but neither would fit either cereal bowl. The 500 series was the surprise, since it even had a mechanism to lower portions on each side of the 3rd rack. The cereal bowls still wouldn't fit.

So, for my requirements, it looks like:

Bosch (Only with the "My Way" 3rd rack which, I think limits it to only some of the 800 series and above)

Samsung DW80R5061 (This was the only Samsung model in like 6 tests that the cereal bowls fit...seems like an oddity. This DW was like 550.00 sitting on the Best Buy floor. We tested with higher priced Samsungs at Costco and Best Buy as well. Just seems odd.)

LG LDP78088SS

Compared to Bosch, the Samsung's price is far more attractive. Gotta do more research.

For WhyBeeSea:
I haven't dug that far into any differences between the models in the series of any. I'll probably do that once I figure out which ones are for real on the short list. But, I gotta tell you, for the most part, the features I care about will trump anything else, because most of those other things just don't matter to me at all. I swear, if someone would just offer me 3 adjustable height racks, with a silverware bin on the bottom, an on/off button, a delay button, and a "running/not running" indicator light, I'd pay a pretty penny for it. All the other stuff is just lost on me.

The best advice I ever got about appliances is: "A fridge's job is to keep things around 38 degrees." aka: don't overthink and overpay.

Let me chime in about LG. When we re-did the kitchen 5 yrs ago, we went with a suite of LG stuff, most importantly expensive fridge and glasstop range. The range broke soon after warrantee expired, and there have been design issues with the freezer compartment. When we had the senior tech out to look at the range, had a long talk with him. Our neighbor three doors down owns the appliance company, which is the largest in the region with several stores. So I got the honest poop: the company started out high on LG, but has had an increasing loss of confidence because the longevity of the units just isn't proving to be there. So rather than pay 40% of the original cost to repair the range, the tech suggested I stay away from LG. Which I did.

The dishwasher from the start was always Bosch, as noted earlier.

Obviously, YMMV, but I trust the advice I was given.

Geo

Thanks seebee. Looking forward to hearing what you end up with!

I personally just want a quiet unit and would not have even considered dependability as I've never had issues w a dishwasher. But everyone's comments here are making me realize this is important.

Kitchenaid
For most of us this brings back memories of appliances of our families.
But KA is longer a sub brand of Hobart and everything was redesigned for cheap production cost trading on the KA brand.
Indeed much of the small appliance was shifted to China with high price and miserable reliability. Try to purchase spare parts.
KA is now the last place we look.
New Dishwasher, Bosch.
New blender VitaMix 750.
49 yr old KA Mixer, still works.
Chinese KA Toaster, junk.
35 yr old KA Food Processor, still works!
15 yr old KA fridge, bottom freezer handle fell off but still works.
-Richard

You're absolutely right budrichard. When I first got into the serious appliance-buying game, 30+ years ago, KA, as you note, was Hobart, and Hobart was gold. So that's what I bought whenever I had enough $$ saved up. And it stood me well.

But when the next round came up, 15-20yrs later KA--again as you note--was no longer Hobart: it was cheapo China. And I made a mistake or two before I found out.

Yet, in those days, GE made some good product, particularly ranges, and that worked out well enough.

Your list of top-end reliable stuff is good. I can add the Paykel-Fisher washer, which is simply an awesome machine. When that things winds up to go into spin, it sounds like a jet turbine spooling up! and the clothes come out damn near dry.

One thing I've learned to be leary of: several pro friends have bought really high-end kitchen equipt--stoves, fridges, freezers, etc.--stuff that's only in limited production because of its very high-endedness. Boy, there can be problems with that stuff! When it works it's wonderful! But there's no benefit of large production runs to serve as quality control tests. And parts and service can be very spotty. My recommendation would be that, unless you live in a large metro area, get the best non-pro widely-produced appliances you can. And stay away from the pro stuff.

Geo

Our best dishwasher was the Hobart LX30 (commercial unit used at Starbucks and elsewhere). Slid under the counter and ran 30 loads per hour with a final sanitizing rinse (built-in booster heater). Pretty loud but with a 90+ second cycle, who cares? Expensive at retail, but given the short lifespan of many restaurants, quite frequently available at used equipment stores (I think we paid $900 for a 6-month old unit).

How long did it last in home use, spiny? Interesting idea, that. Was it messy? Some of the resto units I've seen leak and spray like crazy.

Geo

budrichard wrote:15 yr old KA fridge, bottom freezer handle fell off but still works.
-Richard

LOL -
Samsies, on a 12ish year old KA French Door fridge. I still have the scratch on the floor under the freezer handle. My KA fridge still runs just fine, but the drawers are all just shoddy, flimsy, garbage. Obviously where they cut corners on mine. It LOOKS nice and stately, and it keeps things at 38 degrees as good as any fridge will, but the drawers are sooo annoying. They twist and stop on their tracks because they are so flimsy. There are plastic parts are now broken on the drawer tracks because they twist so much and get stuck.

Geo wrote:How long did it last in home use, spiny? Interesting idea, that. Was it messy? Some of the resto units I've seen leak and spray like crazy.

Geo

As far as I know it's still going strong (sold the house 7 years ago* and owned it for about 8 years before we sold). Not at all messy. As I mentioned, they're in use at nearly every Starbucks I've visited under the back counter. Take standard commercial racks (about $20 each, we had several).
No leaks at all. One note for the uninitiated, no drying function at all. With the sterilizing rinse the water was close to boiling and you got a shot of steam when you opened the door, contents were dry to the touch within a minute or so.

*My wife runs into them every now and then and they would generally mention things like that.

As to high end, all that i’ve read about SubZero and the like is not good for reliability.
Our Viking 4 burner is about 35 years old and is a tank, but the oven igniters and flame distribution burners cost as much as low cost range to replace.
So I generally stay away from the really high end like Cornue which I lust over!
ABT used to have a few in the show room.
In addition, about 20 years ago we purchased a Franke ManorHouse sink and faucet system
It turned out that after 15 years, Franke stopped making spare parts.
We still have the sink, what could go wrong but now a Grohe water treatment system and faucets have replaced the Franke junk.
Grohe is Made in Germany, there go those words again.
It supplies raw water from our well, treated, filtered water chilled, chilled with light carbonation and fully carbonated water, all from the same faucet.
The faucet handle is LED backlit with different colors to tell you the mode you enter.
I expected problems but they have been few and minor although installation by my local plumber and myself took an entire day.
My last two vehicles, digital camera are Made in Germany.
VitaMix is Made in the USA and we only have had a few months with the 750.
Lastly about 15 years ago we purchased high end Kenmore washer and dryers.
Only one repair and that was due to our iron rich well water.
-Richard

I'm not a big advocate of paying the price equivalent of a small car for a fridge but we've had Sub-Zeros in our last two homes and they have performed flawlessly. The one in our first home was about 15 years old when we moved in and close to 30 when we moved out. Our current home had a 10-year-old model and it's creeping up on 18.

As for the more exclusive higher end, all is good until it isn't and that's when availability of parts and service becomes an enormous negative. Even in a market like ours there's usually just "the guy." We have a Miele in-wall espresso station at work, purchased from Abt. Didn't work well from the start and their techs came in several times and fumbled around with no result. We then had to get on "the guy's" schedule. He was an official Miele tech and, at least at that time, the only one in the area. He came in, ran some diagnostic program and fixed the issue in under an hour.

There are some made-in-USA KitchenAid models, not that you need to get one, but just FYI.

Another +1 for Bosch. We had a middle-of-the-road one in our previous house and liked it very much. The only "fancy" function we ever used was the "delay" option. It wasn't noisy, but it wasn't silent, so we'd set it to run a few hours after we went to sleep. The normal wash is hot enough to "sanitize" and I don't think it even had a "heated dry" option, though if it did we never used it.

Our findings -
The top 3 models in consideration:
LG LDP6797ST

Samsung DW80R9950UG

Bosch SHPM65Z55N (500 series)

First off, the Bosch 800 series was clearly the best that we saw for a 3rd rack that could fit things. It wasn't even close. If a 3rd rack with ample space is what you are after, start with the Bosch 800 with the "My Way" 3rd rack. Extra $$ will be needed. We've lived without a 3rd rack for 11 years. We talked ourselves out of "needing" a deep 3rd rack for the extra cost.

Wife 1.0 wants a towel rack, and will pay a little extra. That came into play.

The reviewed.com site listed the Bosch 800 as top of the food chain for full sized dw's, but the Samsung came in at #2. The LG was #3. The Bosch 500 was #6, but in about every other site, the 500 series always held it's own, and many touted it as the best all around for the price.

Yes, we took dishes and stuff to stores, and no, I didn't feel weird at all about it. In my old age, I won't spend money of that type without research. I'd pay whatever I need to, no issue paying premium for quality, but I've been burned by spending on "perceived" quality. I don't care about name brands anymore. Matter of fact, I kinda root for buying lesser known name brands that have better quality.

So, we settled on a third rack that will fit smaller bowls and larger utensils.
Note: Kitchenaid and Whirlpool brands 3rd racks will pretty much only fit silverware and not many utensils - like not even a spatula.

The Samsung model was highly configurable, but somewhat flimsy feeling plastic parts.

The LG was highly configurable as well, and if adjusting the second rack is something you do frequently, pay attention to the LG. Their second rack height adjusting mechanism was easily the best/easiest. We thought on that for a few seconds, but then in reality, we've adjusted our 2nd rack in our Kitchenaid exactly once in 11 years. The LG tho: their 2nd rack was smooth, and simple. It was two buttons, not levers. (my guess is that they attached the buttons to the levers, but it was all concealed. Trust me, it was a nice setup.)

The Bosch 500 tho, I think that's our winner. The 3rd rack was very solid. The bottom was highly adjustable as well, but it had more tines for plates, AND, it can come with a towel bar handle. Bosh's third rack was the most generous of the three. It had two sides that could be lowered independently, where the Samsung only had a small middle portion that could be lowered, and the LG only had one side that could be lowered.

The Bosch is our winner, even for 200ish bucks more, and a db rating of 5 more at 44 vs the other 2 at 39. There's also a lil bit of a perceived dependability factor in there too.

Well.....
What had happened is...
We went into Best Buy fully expecting to order the Bosch 500.
We would have done it on their website, but the version with the towel bar was showing a diff price than what we thought we saw in store. It was confirmed that we incorrectly assumed their in store price was what we thought. HOWEVER, with a few promotions added in, we got the Bosch 800 series with a towel bar for the same price as the 500 with a towel bar.

While we were hemming and hawing about the upgrade from the 500 to the 800 being "worth it," my deviant mind went to work. If anyone cares, the deeper "My Way" 3rd rack appears to fit just fine in the 500 series, and get this: Ebay has em for like 30 bucks. We got the 800 series without the My Way rack - it has the same rack as the 500 series, the My Way rack was a 200.00 upgrade. But I can fix that for 30 bucks.

That My Way 3rd rack was just awesome. It bested any others that we saw by a mile.

So, we get our new DW in a few days.

spinynorman99 wrote:Our best dishwasher was the Hobart LX30 (commercial unit used at Starbucks and elsewhere). Slid under the counter and ran 30 loads per hour with a final sanitizing rinse (built-in booster heater). Pretty loud but with a 90+ second cycle, who cares? Expensive at retail, but given the short lifespan of many restaurants, quite frequently available at used equipment stores (I think we paid $900 for a 6-month old unit).

Unusual for me, I was at a bar last night. I found myself parked near their high speed glass dishwasher. I really enjoyed how fast that dishwasher accomplished its work. I probably witnessed a half a dozen rounds at least.

It appears to keep a reservoir of soap, because they unloaded, loaded and washed without once accessing any soap. Glassware is pretty easy to wash quickly and efficiently.

For really dirty food dishes, does this use the same cycle or it adjusts?

That shot of steam in winter is welcome. It might be a bit wearing on a summer night.

Thank you for highlighting something I never noticed before.

Regards,
Cathy2

Back in the late 70's/early 80's I worked part time for Polk Bros, until the warehouse in Melrose Park, burned down in May of 1987. I sold major appliances. After the fire, I worked part time for ABT from 1987-1992 and sold tons of Kitchen Aid appliances (owned by Whirlpool). In the past, Whirlpool made the Kenmore washer and dryer. Not sure who makes them now. I've had Kitchen Aid appliances in my past two homes since 1990 and recently remodeled my kitchen(tossed the old Kitchen Aid appliances that were still functioning since 1996). My new dishwasher and frig are Kitchen Aid(both extremely quiet). When it came to laundry, I was always a Maytag guy. However, my current choice is Speed Queen(commercial & heavy duty).

CSD

Cathy2 wrote:For really dirty food dishes, does this use the same cycle or it adjusts?

If there was any residue left after a cycle (rare occasions) we simply ran it again. The beauty of a 90-second cycle.