Rene G wrote:

ronnie_suburban wrote:. . . keeping the brine level up to the rim of the vessel was paramount.

I never used one of these fancy crocks, but I'm curious why you think filling the fermentation chamber to the top is important.

It's mechanical not chemical. If you don't, removing whatever gunk forms is way more difficult (dark-interior, opaque vessel + narrow opening, etc). It's tough to see and it's tough access. By filling the vessel to the very top, the mechanical issues of gunk removal are simplified because whatever forms is visible right at the top and much easier to skim off.

=R=

ronnie_suburban wrote:It's mechanical not chemical. If you don't, removing whatever gunk forms is way more difficult (dark-interior, opaque vessel + narrow opening, etc). It's tough to see and it's tough access. By filling the vessel to the very top, the mechanical issues of gunk removal are simplified because whatever forms is visible right at the top and much easier to skim off.

As I said, I've never used one of these pottery crocks with water-filled moats that serve as airlocks. When used properly (ie, the circular moat should get filled with water), the airlock should effectively eliminate oxygen in the fermentation chamber and mostly eliminate growth of unwanted molds and yeasts. Are you sure you're using the airlock correctly?

Rene G wrote:

ronnie_suburban wrote:It's mechanical not chemical. If you don't, removing whatever gunk forms is way more difficult (dark-interior, opaque vessel + narrow opening, etc). It's tough to see and it's tough access. By filling the vessel to the very top, the mechanical issues of gunk removal are simplified because whatever forms is visible right at the top and much easier to skim off.

As I said, I've never used one of these pottery crocks with water-filled moats that serve as airlocks. When used properly (ie, the circular moat should get filled with water), the airlock should effectively eliminate oxygen in the fermentation chamber and mostly eliminate growth of unwanted molds and yeasts. Are you sure you're using the airlock correctly?

Absolutely. The moat is filled. Perhaps it was my constant checking of the batch that was leading to the minimal growth? I just started a new batch and I will resist the urge to check it frequently, if at all.

=R=

ronnie_suburban wrote:Absolutely. The moat is filled. Perhaps it was my constant checking of the batch that was leading to the minimal growth? I just started a new batch and I will resist the urge to check it frequently, if at all.

That almost has to be the explanation (or a big part of it). Everything I've heard about these crocks leads me to believe they're quite effective. WillG's post might be relevant too.

WillG wrote:I have a smaller (1/2 gallon) version of what looks like the same crock as Ronnie, called sauerkrock. The instructions that came with it said not to fill the crock more than 3/4 full. The water canal is filled to stop air circulation, but obviously if it is 1/4 empty, there is already air in there. Ronnie filled his to the top. Which is correct or maybe it doesnt really matter.

Having a little headspace might be of some importance, especially if you need to remove the lid occasionally. Carbon dioxide is denser than air (as you know if you've watched dry ice sublimate) so it will sink to the surface of the brine. If there's room in the crock the denser gas should pretty much stay put even without the lid. If the brine is filled to the rim the carbon dioxide will probably spill out and be lost when the lid is removed.

Time for kraut fermentation is based on ambient temperature where the crock is located.
Ours is in basement and requires a longer time than in a modern room.
The whole purpose of the water seal is to eliminate oxygen. Regardless if CO2 is heavier than O2, open the crock and the CO2 is gone. Amateur physicists need not apply.
My pickles were crocked August 2 and have not been opened since.
I can hear bubbles burping from time to time. The over pressure is only as much as the water depth in the annulus which is about 1&1/2 inches. for reference one atmosphere of pressure will support a water column of 33.8ft. So the pressure is minimal but sufficient.
I will open in about 3 weeks.
At that time I expect half sharp. After 6 weeks more, sharp.
-Richard

Hi,

I remember taking a back kitchen tour at Vie.

They had something fermenting with a small trail of bubbles coming out. I have never seen anything like it coming from anything I fermented.

Regards,
Cathy2

After a 2 week fermentation, unopened, with the water in the airlock regularly topped off, 3/4 or so full crock, there was a very thin layer over the liquid, not particularly moldy, more like a thin skin, which I mostly skimmed off. Since I didnt have any other way of adding tannin (I was out of bay leaves), I had picked a couple of oak leaves and used them. After a week in the fridge in the brining liquid (dill and oak leaves removed), I ate the first one today. No noticeable taste from the oak but very crunchy. Color of the pickles is fairly dark and dull like cooked pickles, not the bright color of some deli pickles. Liquid is still a bit cloudy but quite a bit has settled. I am happy with my first batch.

-Will

WillG wrote:After a 2 week fermentation, unopened, with the water in the airlock regularly topped off, 3/4 or so full crock, there was a very thin layer over the liquid, not particularly moldy, more like a thin skin, which I mostly skimmed off. Since I didnt have any other way of adding tannin (I was out of bay leaves), I had picked a couple of oak leaves and used them. After a week in the fridge in the brining liquid (dill and oak leaves removed), I ate the first one today. No noticeable taste from the oak but very crunchy. Color of the pickles is fairly dark and dull like cooked pickles, not the bright color of some deli pickles. Liquid is still a bit cloudy but quite a bit has settled. I am happy with my first batch.

Nice. I've been using horseradish leaves because I have ongoing access to them but oak leaves are even easier for me to get. I definitely want to keep going and refine my recipes but there's only so much room for pickles in the fridge and only so many friends to give them to. Plus, Ball jars are apparently a pandemic hot item, so they're not easy to find these days, either.

=R=

I ordered my jars on amazon.....basic generic mayonnaise type glass jar and lid. Work fine for refrigerating but dont think i would trust them for heat canning, but I have no plans for that anyway.

-Will

A Highway Pickle Mystery Is Preserved in Missouri

https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/w ... c8c05e4c9a

Would a mustard leaf work? I do have crumbled Bay in my pickling mix.

I purchased some pickle pipes almost two weeks ago, and put up a bunch of pickles. I just noticed a layer of diffuse black scum on top of the water in all four pickle pipes. Do I need to toss them?

JoelF wrote:I purchased some pickle pipes almost two weeks ago, and put up a bunch of pickles. I just noticed a layer of diffuse black scum on top of the water in all four pickle pipes. Do I need to toss them?

I started this thread, so you know I'm a n00b but if pickling echoes charcuterie at all, I'd chuck it. In that realm, white mold is fine. Green and black are generally considered not safe and should be discarded.

=R=

Apologies in advance for boring the hell out of the vast majority of readers. This post is not about pickles (but that Niranjan R YouTube video is kinda fun).

budrichard wrote:Time for kraut fermentation is based on ambient temperature where the crock is located.
Ours is in basement and requires a longer time than in a modern room.

Understood. I asked my question because sauerkraut fermentation produces heat (Parmele et al, J Agric Res 35:1021-38) and your phrase "based on the temperature of the crock" was ambiguous. I was curious if you meant the changing temperature of the crock itself or simply ambient temperature around the crock. I had never noticed heat produced when making kraut (never really paid attention to it) and was wondering if I was missing an important signal.

budrichard wrote:The whole purpose of the water seal is to eliminate oxygen. Regardless if CO2 is heavier than O2, open the crock and the CO2 is gone. Amateur physicists need not apply.

I understand the function of the airlock. As an amateur physicist I stand by what I said. Gaseous carbon dioxide is more than 1.5 times denser than air. If the lid is lifted (taking care to minimize turbulence) from a crock whose headspace is filled with carbon dioxide, what are you saying makes it quickly dissipate? Diffusion? Long term, sure. Certainly if a crock is opened to dig around inside for a long time much of the denser gas could be displaced due to turbulence.

If anyone would like a short (<2 min) visual demonstration of the density of carbon dioxide gas and its stability in open vessels, please allow me to introduce Niranjan R.

budrichard wrote:My pickles were crocked August 2 and have not been opened since.
I can hear bubbles burping from time to time. The over pressure is only as much as the water depth in the annulus which is about 1&1/2 inches. for reference one atmosphere of pressure will support a water column of 33.8ft. So the pressure is minimal but sufficient.
I will open in about 3 weeks.
At that time I expect half sharp. After 6 weeks more, sharp.

Thanks for the details. Is this around 65°F?

Ambient temperature around the crock.

When I open the crock, I will put a lit candle into the gas space after a minute or two and report the results.

Fermentation produces CO2 but that CO2 production mixes with the O2 already present in the air space. So whether the CO2/O2 mixture supports combustion depends on the O2 concentration which is 20% in air. The concentration is both a diffusion problem and mixing turbulent flow problem when you remove the cover.
Transport Phenomena deals with these problems and generally uses statistical calculations for results as the processes do not lend themselves to unique solutions.
-Richard

budrichard wrote:The concentration is both a diffusion problem and mixing turbulent flow problem when you remove the cover.
Transport Phenomena deals with these problems and generally uses statistical calculations

There's some guy in the Appalachian deep backwoods doing moonshine, kraut, pickles, smokehouse cured ham/sausage for 5-generations going
Do What?

It seems fairly clear to me. If I understand correctly, Bud is saying that lifting the lid exposes the airspace underneath the lid to the surrounding air, thus reducing the carbon dioxide concentration (diffusion) and (woosh!) physically dispersing the contents of the airspace underneath the lid to the surrounding air (turbulent flow), accelerating dispersion. If I understand correctly, Rene G is saying that if you lift the lid slowly and carefully to minimize physical dispersion (turbulent flow) and don't spend a lot of time poking around at the contents of the crock, not much mixing of the carbon dioxide (diffusion) with the surrounding air will occur, unless the crock lid is left off for more than just a few minutes. If all that goes over your head, that's neither dispersion nor turbulence; it's a function of density .

I for one am really enjoying the discussion. I'm not a big fan of sauerkraut but would love to learn more about making pickles, so, Rene G, if you ever felt motivated to provide as comprehensive a description of the pickling process as you did for sauerkraut, I'd love to read it (or if you did in the past and I forgot, I'd love to be pointed to it). I gleaned some general things about pickling from your explanation of saurkraut but would be very interested in details where sauerkraut and cucumber pickling differ.

G Wiv wrote:

budrichard wrote:The concentration is both a diffusion problem and mixing turbulent flow problem when you remove the cover.
Transport Phenomena deals with these problems and generally uses statistical calculations

There's some guy in the Appalachian deep backwoods doing moonshine, kraut, pickles, smokehouse cured ham/sausage for 5-generations going
Do What?

That ‘guy’ does not run Nuclear Power Plants.
If you want gibberish, I can Post somewhere else.

Katie wrote:It seems fairly clear to me. If I understand correctly, Bud is saying that lifting the lid exposes the airspace underneath the lid to the surrounding air, thus reducing the carbon dioxide concentration (diffusion) and (woosh!) physically dispersing the contents of the airspace underneath the lid to the surrounding air (turbulent flow), accelerating dispersion. If I understand correctly, Rene G is saying that if you lift the lid slowly and carefully to minimize physical dispersion (turbulent flow) and don't spend a lot of time poking around at the contents of the crock, not much mixing of the carbon dioxide (diffusion) with the surrounding air will occur, unless the crock lid is left off for more than just a few minutes. If all that goes over your head, that's neither dispersion nor turbulence; it's a function of density .

I for one am really enjoying the discussion. I'm not a big fan of sauerkraut but would love to learn more about making pickles, so, Rene G, if you ever felt motivated to provide as comprehensive a description of the pickling process as you did for sauerkraut, I'd love to read it (or if you did in the past and I forgot, I'd love to be pointed to it). I gleaned some general things about pickling from your explanation of saurkraut but would be very interested in details where sauerkraut and cucumber pickling differ.

Your interpretations are quite correct!
But the concentration in the crock starts with nitrogen and oxygen and is a buildup problem of both CO2 generation and gas leaving the crock.
Actually it’s a static problem as you can discount diffusion and mixing. If you could calculate the generation rate of CO2 and knew the gas volume and rate at which mixed gas leaves the crock, you could get a CO2 concentration versus Time answer.
A problem for a Transport Phenomena quiz!
In any event, a simple experiment will answer the problem.
Which I will do when I lift the lid on my crock.
Did I say that worked on Plasma Physics experiments?
-Richard

budrichard wrote:That ‘guy’ does not run Nuclear Power Plants.
If you want gibberish, I can Post somewhere else.

Much as I enjoy posting my own brand of gibberish I really dig your posts. Hell, between you, Rene and a few others bringing up LTH IQ I might even learn me some science smarts.

BudRichard, count me a Fan!

Thank you.

So after some suspicious mold in the pickle pipes, I was worried about my pickles. Opening the full lids, there was no mold in any of them, but two of the four jars were somewhat mushy, so I discarded them. The other three quarts (one jar was a two-quart) appeared fine, so I treated them like 'strange plants in the woods'. Day 1: chewed a small piece and spat it out. Day 2: Chewed and swallowed a small piece. Today I eat a whole pickle. It's a little under-pickled, but tasty. I should have put more chiles and garlic in, I think.

Meanwhile, everything's going in the dishwasher's sani-cycle, and I'll try pickling a couple other things. I've got lots of jalapenos, and I'd like another try at mustard greens.

JoelF wrote:Meanwhile, everything's going in the dishwasher's sani-cycle, and I'll try pickling a couple other things. I've got lots of jalapenos, and I'd like another try at mustard greens.

Thinking about all the pickled jalapenos I've had, brining might be a better tack than fermentation.

=R=

ronnie_suburban wrote:

JoelF wrote:Meanwhile, everything's going in the dishwasher's sani-cycle, and I'll try pickling a couple other things. I've got lots of jalapenos, and I'd like another try at mustard greens.

Thinking about all the pickled jalapenos I've had, brining might be a better tack than fermentation.

=R=

Good point -- I did a ferment on a mix of ghost chiles and jalas a few years ago, I've still got more hot sauce than I know what to do with (that stuff's pretty wicked)

JoelF wrote:

ronnie_suburban wrote:

JoelF wrote:Meanwhile, everything's going in the dishwasher's sani-cycle, and I'll try pickling a couple other things. I've got lots of jalapenos, and I'd like another try at mustard greens.

Thinking about all the pickled jalapenos I've had, brining might be a better tack than fermentation.

=R=

Good point -- I did a ferment on a mix of ghost chiles and jalas a few years ago, I've still got more hot sauce than I know what to do with (that stuff's pretty wicked)

Nice! I can't even imagine how hot that must be. Not a surprise that you have plenty left!

Seems like lacto-fermentation is the best path for chile and hot pepper sauces/salsas, and vinegar/brining is the best path for pickling. But again, I'm just looking at it as an eater. As a maker, I'm a complete n00b.

=R=

Opened the crock this morning. Pickles were crocked August 2.
Zero scum, just liquid.
Put lighted candle into the gas space in the crock and the candle extinguished.
Lifted one stone and removed a quart of pickles and put two quarts of fresh pickles.
Reinserted lighted candle and indeed the candle extinguished again.
So the gas space did not have enough oxygen to support combustion initially and even after some disturbing, still not enough oxygen.
So the CO2 does in fact remain relatively stable due to it’s heavier than N2 and O2.
-Richard
BTW pickles good but salty to my taste, rinsed pickles and much better.
More than half sharp.

budrichard wrote:Opened the crock this morning. Pickles were crocked August 2.
Zero scum, just liquid.
Put lighted candle into the gas space in the crock and the candle extinguished.
Lifted one stone and removed a quart of pickles and put two quarts of fresh pickles.
Reinserted lighted candle and indeed the candle extinguished again.
So the gas space did not have enough oxygen to support combustion initially and even after some disturbing, still not enough oxygen.
So the CO2 does in fact remain relatively stable due to it’s heavier than N2 and O2.

Thank you for the report. I was on the edge of my seat when I noticed you posted (a slight exaggeration, but I've been eagerly awaiting the results of your experiment). I can't say I'm too surprised by the short-time result. The longer-time result, with perturbation of the CO2 layer, I wasn't so sure about. Clearly this stratified system in a lidless crock is fairly stable, owing to the large difference in the density of CO2 compared to air. Of course, in an open vessel diffusion will eventually rule and the CO2 will disperse into the air (at least after the system comes to equilibrium; that is, once CO2 is no longer produced from the pickles). When your pickling is finished, it might be interesting to leave the lid off for, say, an hour and do the candle test again.

If anyone is wondering how much oxygen is needed to support a burning candle, Smoky Bear – arguably the world's leading authority on combustion – says about 16% (air is 21%).

So what does all this have to do with pickles? This physico-chemical tangent started when I suggested to Ronnie that filling his crock to the brim with brine might not be a good idea. As a theoretical pickler I stand by what I said. But, this being the real world and all, it might not make a big difference. Who knows? All that matters is that Ronnie is happy with his pickles.

Katie wrote:It seems fairly clear to me. If I understand correctly, Bud is saying that lifting the lid exposes the airspace underneath the lid to the surrounding air, thus reducing the carbon dioxide concentration (diffusion) and (woosh!) physically dispersing the contents of the airspace underneath the lid to the surrounding air (turbulent flow), accelerating dispersion. If I understand correctly, Rene G is saying that if you lift the lid slowly and carefully to minimize physical dispersion (turbulent flow) and don't spend a lot of time poking around at the contents of the crock, not much mixing of the carbon dioxide (diffusion) with the surrounding air will occur, unless the crock lid is left off for more than just a few minutes. If all that goes over your head, that's neither dispersion nor turbulence; it's a function of density

A good summary. I think we both agreed diffusion would eventually do its thing, but differed on the time required. This amateur physicist lacks the tools to tackle that.

Katie wrote:I for one am really enjoying the discussion. I'm not a big fan of sauerkraut but would love to learn more about making pickles, so, Rene G, if you ever felt motivated to provide as comprehensive a description of the pickling process as you did for sauerkraut, I'd love to read it (or if you did in the past and I forgot, I'd love to be pointed to it). I gleaned some general things about pickling from your explanation of saurkraut but would be very interested in details where sauerkraut and cucumber pickling differ.

I'm happy to hear at least a few readers were entertained. I might eventually get around to a literature review on lactic fermentation of cucumbers like I did for sauerkraut, but it's a lot of work.

Something I will promise, over in the Microbiology for Krauters thread, is a calculation of how much CO2 is produced during lactic fermentation of cabbage. This has implications for how often one can open an active crock (although maybe it's not so important given the stability of a CO2/air gradient). Let's think about a real-world situation. Consider fermenting 20 pounds (9.1 kg) of cabbage in an air-locked crock starting with 4 liters of air above the brine. What volume of CO2 could be produced from that amount of cabbage? Less than 4 L? Much less? Close to 4 L? More than 4 L? Much more? Warning: this might bring back traumatic memories of Chemistry 101 (remember Avogadro's law?). It will probably take me a day or two to post so there shouldn't be a lot of time pressure.

Rene G wrote:All that matters is that Ronnie is happy with his pickles.

Yes, I am, very much so. The fermentation and flavor are both excellent . . .


Russian Dills
Here they are ready for sorting and jarring -- just a beautiful sight. I had no mold or gunk at all in the crock this time. Brine level may not have been at the very top of the crock but was no more than an inch or two below that, and I kept the moat filled. With smaller cucumbers, I dialed the salt back to 4% this time and let them ferment for 14 days. Fwiw, the floating matter in the picture is just ground up spices that came to the top.


Jarred Up
Ready for the refrigerator . . . and distribution.

=R=

Binko wrote:Well, last week or so ago, I got around to pickling some beets for beet kvass:

Binko wrote:This stuff is so ridiculously purple. I think you have to have a bit of a Central/Eastern European bent to truly appreciate it. Drink it chilled for some nice probiotics, with a kick of garlic, lactic acid, flowering dill (in my version), and beets.

Shop & Save on Archer now has beet kvass for sale. A bit pricey though.

Did some more pickling here over the weekend. When the little cucumbers show up in our weekly farm box, I don't really know anything better to do with them. Soon, though, I'll run out of refrigerator space, as the thought of canning them doesn't really excite me . . .


Pickle Fixin's & Moritaka AS Gyuto 210mm
Cucumbers, onions and couple kind of peppers (both sweet and hot).


Bread & Butter Pickles
This is the Bread-and-Butters My Way recipe from Linda Ziedrich's The Joy Of Pickling. That's more or less my pickling bible (other than this thread, of course) and I really like this recipe a lot.

=R=