Does Chicago Need More Jewish Delis?

Hi LTH Forum,

My name is Jake Schneider, I am new to the LTH community and looking to spark some discussion.

Full transparency, I am working on a plan to open my own Jewish deli and I want your help to better understand the existing demand in Chicago and refine my concept to be something the People want and need.

Of course this post is partly rooted in self-promotion, but, I am so passionate about this subject that I really do want to know...

Does Chicago need more Jewish delis?

As a Jew, I talk to my friends and family (evenly split between the city and the suburbs) about my ideas and the most common thing I hear is "OMG we NEED more delis!"

- If this is so true, why do so few exist?
- What are people looking for in a Jewish deli today?
- With rising food and labor costs, how can we emulate the spirit of the old world delis we all love in a business model that works for today's times?

Some Background about me:
After graduating college in 2012, I began my cooking career at L2O, the late Michelin-starred fine dining restaurant in Lincoln Park (quite a place to get my feet wet!). I then went on to work at some of Chicago’s other top restaurants, including RPM Italian, Perennial Virant, Salero, Wood, and Daisies.

In addition to restaurant experience, I have spent the last 5 years wth Tovala, a meal kit company founded in Chicago. I am currently a Culinary Manager focusing on recipe development, large scale food manufacturing and continued business growth. I had the opportunity to be a part of opening two food manufacturing facilities during my time.

My new project: Schneider Provisions
Schneider Provisions is a new Jewish deli concept located in Chicago, Illinois. We are fully committed to preserving Jewish culinary traditions and delicatessen-style.

At SP, the deli case is always full and the corned beef is piled high, evoking the delis of the past that seem to have disappeared from today’s culinary landscape.

We'll be open for breakfast and lunch with an all-day menu featuring classics like bagels with hand-sliced, house-cured salmon, sufficiently stuffed sandwiches, pickles, potato latkes, and more. Our selection of approachable and affordable menu items make us a great meal solution for everyday commuters, local residents, and tourists alike. SP offers counter service, as well as take-out and delivery and a variety of catering selections for all your entertaining needs.

Check out photos from a Monday Night Foodball pop-up we did last fall at The Kedzie Inn in partnership with Mike Sula and The Chicago Reader!

My hope here is to spark conversation within the community, meet some new people, and validate my concept. If I end up feeding all of you in the end, I would be delighted!

Welcome and YAY! As a fellow tribeswoman, I can only speculate that more Jewish delis don’t exist in Chi-land because they generally haven’t been executed all that well. And I think it may be a cuisine that hasn’t appealed to a very diverse audience.

My personal request? Bagels like those from Bodo’s in VA. It’s a slightly different style than traditional NY bagels and sooooo good.

Best of luck and keep us posted!

Hi Jake!

Welcome to LTH. We’ve never met. But I know your parents through NSCI. Best of luck on your new journey.

Dave

this is great, and YES! transplanted new yorkers, we order fedex from barney greengrass regularly; we feel that some of the chicago delis are truly unacceptable. we enjoy steingolds but it's too far from our regular orbits. helfeld's is doing good things. relatedly, west town / ukrainian village / wicker park/ bucktown is really really sandwich deprived. so we'll come check you out, and if you're still scouting locations consider over here!

An interesting question that perhaps raises some other questions: What would a modern Chicago Jewish deli be? Would the food be basically American Jewish food as opposed to what's served in the many Eastern European delis around town? It seems like many of the existing Jewish delis are based on a New York style. As such, do they somewhat limit their appeal to NY transplants and others who ♥NYC? Was there ever a distinct Chicago style that could be revived? I suspect that's what's missing: As Chicago's Jews moved to more secular lives in the suburbs, the older foodways were somewhat abandoned unlike other Chicago staples like hot dogs, pizza, atomic cakes, etc. An example from my family: Distant cousins owned Fox's Deli, a genuine Chicago Jewish deli, but hung it up 70 or 80 years ago to move to California and different careers.

And you didn't mention the K word. There may be a need for more kosher restaurants in the area, but that's a pretty restrictive style.

Welcome aboard, Jake. You're doing good work and I hope you succeed.

The current state of Jewish deli in Chicago is pretty dismal. And recent history suggests, sadly, that even places turning out some pretty good product -- Jeff & Jude's and to a lesser extent, Rye -- cannot make it in Chicago. But I'm not sure that delis in those locations had much of a fighting chance without picking up a considerable amount of steady, crossover business.

Am I naive in thinking that in order for a Jewish deli to at least have a shot at being successful, it needs to be located where the Jews live, aka the northern suburbs? Their food doesn't come close to being destination-worthy but Once Upon A Bagel in Highland Park has been there forever and seems to do steady business. On the other hand, they trade in egg white salad, lean corned beef, turkey sandwiches and bagels with the texture of hamburger buns. It's sub-forgettable.

NY not withstanding, (deli culture is alive and well there), when I visited Portland back in the day, Kenny & Zuke's (now also closed) made me envious that Chicago had nothing comparable. Just about everything they sold was made in-house. Are the costs for such a program simply too high to make a business offering them financially viable? I honestly don't know but I suspect that without brisk throughput, the answer is yes.

My feeling is that the local deli crowd, or whatever's left of it, is much more health-conscious these days. They generally avoid fatty/cured meats and carbs. I think there's still an interested market but maybe not enough of one to create the demand necessary to power a great place. I really hope I'm wrong about this. As it stands, I've learned how to make my own corned beef, pastrami and cold-smoked salmon. And when I want bagels, I head over to NYB&B on Touhy, wait in annoying line and grab some, even though they're nowhere near as good as they used to be. That's quite a haul from my house but it's near my office, which is the only reason it happens as often as it does.

=R=

Hi Jake,

Personally I'd love to see another Jewish deli in Chicago, though I'm not sure how strong the market is.

As Ronnie_Suburban pointed out, some surviving Jewish delis have focused on "healthier" offerings. Nothing wrong with providing options as long as you maintain the traditional items that make a deli Jewish. I like that at Kaufman's in Skokie you can specify the fat level in your corned beef from deckle to super trim.

I think some of the emphasis on healthy reflects the aging of customers for tradional deli.

Good luck to you. I hope you succeed.

ronnie_suburban wrote:Am I naive in thinking that in order for a Jewish deli to at least have a shot at being successful, it needs to be located where the Jews live, aka the northern suburbs?
=R=

Ron--is that akin to Jesse James being asked, 'why do you rob banks?', with his answer being, 'because that's where the money is.'

But...it's a fair question. I know there have been musings on how Manny's hasn't kept its high standards, but I'm still a fan--it's just that the prices have shot up seemingly geometrically, for almost everything they use. Well before Covid, I remember Danny Raskin saying how high the meat prices were. And although I ate at Manny's for 10 years straight when we were next door neighbors and they were our landlords, I haven't been very often at all just because I don't go to the city much anymore.

So up in the north suburbs, there is the OK-to-satiate-the-deli-Jones Max & Benny's, which isn't a bad meeting place and personally I love the conviviality of all delis. But it's just not Manny's. And recently I took my cousins--my first time too--to Langer's Deli on South Alvarado in central L.A. Kinda sketchy neighborhood like Manny's, but that only helped my enjoyment of Langer's I think. Conversely, a few years ago I visited Shapiro's in Indianapolis, which had pretty good fare but none of the urban ambience.

Selfishly, I would like a potentially step-above Jewish deli to be close, meaning the north suburbs. There is competition but nothing in my view that can't be bettered by a mile.

Good luck, Jake.

My suggestion for gaining and retaining market share in the Jewish deli marketplace is a focus on Montreal-style smoked meat, pastrami specifically. If it's done right, you can be a 1 of 1 type destination. Good luck.

bweiny wrote:My suggestion for gaining and retaining market share in the Jewish deli marketplace is a focus on Montreal-style smoked meat, pastrami specifically. If it's done right, you can be a 1 of 1 type destination. Good luck.

Fumare in the French Market staked out that territory for quite a while but they closed during COVID, not sure why. They had a good product.

spinynorman99 wrote:

bweiny wrote:My suggestion for gaining and retaining market share in the Jewish deli marketplace is a focus on Montreal-style smoked meat, pastrami specifically. If it's done right, you can be a 1 of 1 type destination. Good luck.

Fumare in the French Market staked out that territory for quite a while but they closed during COVID, not sure why. They had a good product.

There is a new operator in the French Market, one of the managers there, with a place doing just this. It's called Clinton Street Smoked Meats. It looks promising.

JP001 wrote:It's called Clinton Street Smoked Meats.

Here's the menu: https://frenchmarketchicago.menu/clinto ... d23e7c43f4

An understatement to say it's heavy on the pastrami. They do have matzo ball soup but I don't know as I'd characterize it as a full deli. Of course, being in a food hall it's probably not necessary to have everything. And I'm confused, isn't the difference between Reuben and Rachel pastrami vs turkey, not kraut vs slaw?

What, no Reuben egg roll?

ronnie_suburban wrote:Welcome aboard, Jake. You're doing good work and I hope you succeed.

The current state of Jewish deli in Chicago is pretty dismal. And recent history suggests, sadly, that even places turning out some pretty good product -- Jeff & Jude's and to a lesser extent, Rye -- cannot make it in Chicago. But I'm not sure that delis in those locations had much of a fighting chance without picking up a considerable amount of steady, crossover business.

Am I naive in thinking that in order for a Jewish deli to at least have a shot at being successful, it needs to be located where the Jews live, aka the northern suburbs? Their food doesn't come close to being destination-worthy but Once Upon A Bagel in Highland Park has been there forever and seems to do steady business. On the other hand, they trade in egg white salad, lean corned beef, turkey sandwiches and bagels with the texture of hamburger buns. It's sub-forgettable.

NY not withstanding, (deli culture is alive and well there)...
=R=

My first comment, Jake, is to mine the search box here, and too bad Chowhound's archives are gone, as this topic has been run over forever, and maybe you can find some insight in previous threads too. I think the overwhelming sentiment, each time, is YES, but does anyone have an answer, and has anyone been able to achieve what people want?

I agree to a large extent with what Ronnie's saying re go where the Jews are. I actually think that Max's and Max n' Benny's are not *that bad* but there's something inherently "uncool" about them that they cannot bridge the divide between what people think they want and what they get.

I can go on forever on this topic (as I have over the years). The basic problem is that everyone has an ideal of what they want and very few ideals are the same. For instance, do you need a "deli counter".

My opinion, and who knows, but my opinion is that too many operations these days try to "update" or "interpret" or "put a modern take" on deli's, and then they wonder why they fail or no one goes. The other thing you see, is someone will say, I went to Langers and I'm copying their 19 or I'm gonna do it exactly like Katz's, and then when they open they only do it kinda like Katz's or a little like Langers. The operator thinks close enough is good enough. It's not.

Anyway, getting back to Ronnie's comment. I've been in NYC a lot in last 2 years, and will be there a lot in the next year (if you gotta be somewhere and like to eat, it's a great place to be). I'll say that the options for Jewish food are way greater than in Chicago; obviously Katz's exists, and there are other deli's like Sarges and Pastrami Queen (and they're very good!), but I don't think "deli" culture exists much more in NYC than it does in Chicago. Katz's is as much "deli museum" as anything, nothing wrong with that.

I'll wrap up with this. In Oak Park, my hometown, we all waited for a long time, with high anticipation, for Fritzi's. It finally opened, and by my side eye, it's not doing as well as they hype (or the friendly Facebook comments) would indicate. It speaks very well to how hard it is to meet expectations, and it also speaks to how hard it is to deliver what people want. One thing Fritzi's tried to do, was build a long menu. If someone said it should be on a deli menu, from kugel to skirt steak, they put it on; it would be a good strategy if the had a highly capitalized, well run kitchen. Absent that, it has not worked well.

Good luck!

Vital Information wrote:

ronnie_suburban wrote:Welcome aboard, Jake. You're doing good work and I hope you succeed.

The current state of Jewish deli in Chicago is pretty dismal. And recent history suggests, sadly, that even places turning out some pretty good product -- Jeff & Jude's and to a lesser extent, Rye -- cannot make it in Chicago. But I'm not sure that delis in those locations had much of a fighting chance without picking up a considerable amount of steady, crossover business.

Am I naive in thinking that in order for a Jewish deli to at least have a shot at being successful, it needs to be located where the Jews live, aka the northern suburbs? Their food doesn't come close to being destination-worthy but Once Upon A Bagel in Highland Park has been there forever and seems to do steady business. On the other hand, they trade in egg white salad, lean corned beef, turkey sandwiches and bagels with the texture of hamburger buns. It's sub-forgettable.

NY not withstanding, (deli culture is alive and well there)...
=R=

My first comment, Jake, is to mine the search box here, and too bad Chowhound's archives are gone, as this topic has been run over forever, and maybe you can find some insight in previous threads too. I think the overwhelming sentiment, each time, is YES, but does anyone have an answer, and has anyone been able to achieve what people want?

I agree to a large extent with what Ronnie's saying re go where the Jews are. I actually think that Max's and Max n' Benny's are not *that bad* but there's something inherently "uncool" about them that they cannot bridge the divide between what people think they want and what they get.

I can go on forever on this topic (as I have over the years). The basic problem is that everyone has an ideal of what they want and very few ideals are the same. For instance, do you need a "deli counter".

My opinion, and who knows, but my opinion is that too many operations these days try to "update" or "interpret" or "put a modern take" on deli's, and then they wonder why they fail or no one goes. The other thing you see, is someone will say, I went to Langers and I'm copying their 19 or I'm gonna do it exactly like Katz's, and then when they open they only do it kinda like Katz's or a little like Langers. The operator thinks close enough is good enough. It's not.

Anyway, getting back to Ronnie's comment. I've been in NYC a lot in last 2 years, and will be there a lot in the next year (if you gotta be somewhere and like to eat, it's a great place to be). I'll say that the options for Jewish food are way greater than in Chicago; obviously Katz's exists, and there are other deli's like Sarges and Pastrami Queen (and they're very good!), but I don't think "deli" culture exists much more in NYC than it does in Chicago. Katz's is as much "deli museum" as anything, nothing wrong with that.

I'll wrap up with this. In Oak Park, my hometown, we all waited for a long time, with high anticipation, for Fritzi's. It finally opened, and by my side eye, it's not doing as well as they hype (or the friendly Facebook comments) would indicate. It speaks very well to how hard it is to meet expectations, and it also speaks to how hard it is to deliver what people want. One thing Fritzi's tried to do, was build a long menu. If someone said it should be on a deli menu, from kugel to skirt steak, they put it on; it would be a good strategy if the had a highly capitalized, well run kitchen. Absent that, it has not worked well.

Good luck!

This is why I remain a fan of The Onion Roll

In a word, yes. Deli dies when the offspring of the originals prefer college to the cooler. 1st generation Jews brought a vibrant deli culture (often reluctantly as they often couldn't find work in their fields after immigrating) but wanted better for their kids- less labor intensive, better margins w/products that don't spoil while living the American dream. A few generations after the fact and they've moved on. Health concerns over the last 40 has compromised its allure as well.

Ronnie mentioned Kenny and Zukes, and for me they were the best deli I've eaten in 20 yrs. You should talk to Zuke aka, ExtraMSG here on LTH. PM him. He's also got great book on it called The Artisan Deli-(disclaimer, I'm mentioned and also helped in their pastrami evolution) as is David Sax's Save the Deli. Both should be required reading for you. I don't agree that you need to be in the N. Suburbs, as if 3 million people in Chicago couldn't support a good deli, any more than doing Montreal style is the way to go. There's a lot more Ashkenazi Jews in Chicagoland than Canadians. Fwiw, to me Manny's wasn't a deli until they most recently added the cold fish selection. Jewish steam table w/some deli offerings, yes. Deli, no. And for that matter, in my mind you need a counter for kibitzing and display- an integral part of the old deli experience albeit for the most part, lost. Best of luck.

I am the "Zuke" Jazzfood referred to. Cathy let me know about the thread, so I'll pop in with some hard earned opinions. I just skimmed the thread, however, so I won't speak too specifically to what's been said before.

I no longer own a deli. I sold to my business partner over a decade ago. If I were to open a deli today, I would take a very different tack. We created an artisan kosher-style deli, think Katz's or 2nd Avenue or Langer's, but everything made in house from scratch. There are many issues this creates, such as that it's meat heavy, which means that it has high food costs. And often when people think of a deli sandwich, they think of corned beef or pastrami piled high, which means large portions. But even tourists don't want to pay $20+ for a sandwich, which is part of the reason many of those tourist delis in NY have closed. Also, for most Americans, sandwiches are lunch food only, which limits service in a way that hamburgers or tacos or fried chicken don't. (You're generally better doing bagels and sandwiches, focusing on lunch and brunch, for deli. Breakfast items can offset food costs, too, and require less prep.) The meat heavy nature of traditional deli food, too, is to some extent out of sync with trends. Yes, BBQ is trendy and pastrami is sort of JewBQ, but still, without corned beef becoming the next beef birria or whatever, the nature of deli foods as heavy work against them. But I really think the deli is mostly on borrowed time. They may never die out, but they need to be understood more like other sandwich shops are, not as a full service restaurant, but fast casual with a focus on take-out and delivery, to keep costs in line with what can be charged for the product. You'd also be better off taking a Zingerman's approach, which is sort of a combo of Jewish, Italian and mayo-eating deli traditions. Jewish culture is diluted. Those who are nostalgic for the foods are dying off. Jewish deli doesn't speak to a broad enough cross section of Americans in its traditional form. It requires a makeover to be successful.

If I were to open today, I would not try to emulate a Jewish deli. I would try to make something more forward thinking, a restaurant that took into account the broader Jewish diaspora rather than just the NY Ashkenazi tradition. I wouldn't worry about only meeting expectations of Jews or being where there are a lot of Jews. I would try to make a place that appeals to hipsters more than altekakers. There are some out there. An obvious route would be taking more an an Ottolenghi approach with nods to deli tradition here and there. But I think a New American restaurant with Jewish flavors could work great. You just can't be too pig headed about it. That ain't kosher. You have to be willing to adapt and make something new, saving as much of the tradition and flavors as you can.

You should definitely read Sax's Save the Deli.

extramsg wrote:I would try to make a place that appeals to hipsters more than altekakers... You just can't be too pig headed about it. That ain't kosher

Sage advice. And funny.

Hi All.

Things are progressing well with our deli.

We have started construction at the Ohio House Motel retail space at 600 N LaSalle. I am extremely excited to be bringing a Jewish deli to River North. We are eagerly looking forward to joining the community this summer and nourishing residents, commuters, and tourists alike. We haven't set an opening date yet but we hoping for August/September.

Another update is we are launching the deli under a new name; Schneider Deli.

I am honored to share a recently published write up on us in Jewish Chicago, the JUF Magazine.

I would love to hear from you all what you think of our plans.
If you want to keep tabs on our progress, I invite you to subscribe to our email updates here.

We can't wait to open and for everybody to come see what we are all about!

i look forward to your opening- we do NOT have enough jewish delis in chicago. i'm wondering if the parking lot that i believe the ohio motel has will be available for your customers??thanks

justjoan wrote:i look forward to your opening- we do NOT have enough jewish delis in chicago. i'm wondering if the parking lot that i believe the ohio motel has will be available for your customers??thanks

We will have a couple spots in the lot reserved for customers.

Not for nuthin', but my favorite (and most unique) part of a deli was the steam table. By the time I started frequenting Manny's, it probably was the only deli left in Chicago that had one. This is not to say that a deli is defined by having a steam table, I just liked seeing it, seeing right in front of me what I 'had a taste for'. And from a nostalgic standpoint, it harkened back to the 'cafeteria' days in the 1940's/1950's.

I wonder as Danny Raskin took over from his father Ken (who took over from his dad Manny), whether he considered axing the steam table. Just logistically, wouldn't that have added a ton of cost right off the hop?

But you can't beat an impulse decision on Wednesday lunch at Manny's to order the oxtail stew, maybe with a side of kishke with gravy. Then back to the office and a nap!

Schneider Deli - opening August 3rd.

Schneider Deli - opening August 3rd.

Welcome to the neighborhood!

Kenny & Zuke's Delicatessen

It pains me to contact you all under these circumstances, but unfortunately we will be closing Kenny & Zuke's. Our last day will be Sunday, November 26th.

It's been a long ride, sometimes joyful, often painful. I've tried my best to make it work, but eventually that wasn't enough. Ultimately, it's a risky business with never a guarantee of success.

Thank you all for your support over the 16 years we've been in business. Not sure what I'll do next - could be a part time cooking gig, or a pop-up, or a book, or a combination of all.

Ken

Dave148 wrote:Schneider Deli - opening August 3rd.

Seems to be doing well. Added dinner items to the menu and extended hours to 8:30pm.
Disclosing again = I'm friends with his parents.