ronnie_suburban wrote:
Personally, I love the way message boards like this one are organized, so that's nothing I see as in need of adjusting. I'm guessing that many who spend time here feel the same.

Beyond all that, I loathe social media. I might not be the best custodian of LTH but I'd never willingly drop our 20 years of collectively-built history squarely into someone else's platform. Arbitrary rule changes, unilateral conflict resolution, and primarily motivated by the constant need for ever-increasing profits. And that's just to name a few. It's really a complete non-starter.

=R=
for LTH

I am grateful that you are in charge.

ronnie_suburban wrote:Beyond all that, I loathe social media.

[tongue-in-cheek]Isn't LTH social media?[/tongue-in-cheek]
I share your disgust with the mo' views, mo' money model with its curated echo chamber feeds, endless spam and advertising everywhere. And I failed to note that, as Cathy2 points out, FB groups don't have a way to organize topics; they are organized as posts, replies, and replies-to-replies. Anyhoo, a workaround upvote for your comments.

Cynthia
wrote:I am grateful that you are in charge.

And one for this as well. Thanks, Ron, for all you do!

ronnie_suburban wrote:

I loathe social media. I might not be the best custodian of LTH but I'd never willingly drop our 20 years of collectively-built history squarely into someone else's platform. Arbitrary rule changes, unilateral conflict resolution, and primarily motivated by the constant need for ever-increasing profits. And that's just to name a few. It's really a complete non-starter.

100% agreement. There's no need to go into details, but I avoided social media since it started. I believe doing so has helped my mental state.

LTH on Facebook is a no go for me.

The debate in this Sweet Rabbit Bakery thread, which includes a good debate on the flakiness of the pastries, really hammers home the importance of pictures. I think if LTH was being started in today's adult internet era rather than the infant era of 2004, it would be inconceivable to not prioritize photos.

I know Ron is working on making it easier to add pics to posts, but until that happens, it would be so helpful if people would take the time to add pictures to posts where appropriate. As others have shown in this thread and elsewhere, if you're posting from a computer, it's really not hard to do.

lol. Who the f uses a pc other than at work. And I’m too damn busy there to be posting pics. I might be lazy But I don’t need another password/ photo hosting account. It’s 2024. Stuff should be easily shareable imho. Folks who know me see what I eat on fb til then. The photo thing is a big deal. Get it fixed and. Damn. LTH could be more relevant to a larger segment.

MarlaCollins'Husband wrote:The debate in this Sweet Rabbit Bakery thread, which includes a good debate on the flakiness of the pastries, really hammers home the importance of pictures.

Point taken. Although as one of the main pastry pontificators in the quoted thread, I'll just say that the ease of upload doesn't have a lot to do with why I didn't include any pictures with some of these posts. I rarely stop to document food in this way anymore so there was no picture to upload. I think I just wanted to focus on enjoying the food in front of me rather than stopping to capture it in some way. I don't remember how that timeline compares with when the picture story changed here.

But this is a reminder that pictures might help to communicate ideas, bolster arguments, whet appetites, etc. Given that, I will try to think to grab them a bit more.

jimswside wrote:lol. Who the f uses a pc other than at work. And I’m too damn busy there to be posting pics. I might be lazy But I don’t need another password/ photo hosting account. It’s 2024. Stuff should be easily shareable imho. Folks who know me see what I eat on fb til then. The photo thing is a big deal. Get it fixed and. Damn. LTH could be more relevant to a larger segment.

If you're looking for a primarily mobile app, I can assure you that LTH will never fit the bill. Sorry.

As for inline image uploads, I'm now working with the 5th person I've tried to have remedy it. The first 4 -- all self-described experts with phpBB -- were unable resolve it. It's a difficult issue and its resolution is attached to some larger issues that need to be repaired first. Those repairs -- significant and fundamental -- are well underway but they will take more time. There is no ETA. The person who's helping is very well-versed but doing it on a volunteer basis. He's often busy with pressing work issues, so I'd feel like a dick pushing him on it.

If you or anyone else has a credible source of assistance, please let me know. In the meantime, I promise that I will hold membership rates steady through the end of 2024!

=R=
for LTH

I think this might be an age thing. I grew up in the days when all restaurant reviews were just words. There might be an occasional photo, but it was only if there was a profile of a chef or new venue. Chicago Magazine was filled with one-column-inch reviews, and readers just went and tried places until one began to know which reviewer had expectations most similar to one's own. (Same for movies.) Even now, while a nice photo might catch my attention, I don't require photos to be attracted to a place, and rarely take photos myself. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate good food photography -- because I do. Just not a deal breaker for me.

So no contribution to the solution, just a realization that background can make a difference in expectations.

I'm old enough to need readers to look at my phone but young enough to be addicted to Instagram. When I can, I always use my laptop for screen time, less strain on the eyes, better for typing. I come to LTH more for the written word. There's plenty of pictures everywhere else on social media. I've been deprogramming myself to always reach for my phone to document every dish I eat. Like gastro gnome, I am focusing on being present with the food and my company. Sure, images can help illustrate a point about pastry lamination, but there's a culture of articulate writing here, which feels like a dying medium.

Yeah fuck the written word, I'm way too cool for that bs. Pictures only and lots of memes! At restaurants too. There should only be pictures on menus and we can point at what we want to order just like at Denny's. Gotta go. My brain hurts from all this typing.

Clarence Beeks wrote:There should only be pictures on menus and we can point at what we want to order just like at Denny's. Gotta go. My brain hurts from all this typing.

Dear Mr. Beeks,

I realize you are still shook from your “encounter “ with the gorilla. But Please do not disparage Denny’s. Where elites meat and greet for a bite to eat.

Cordially,
The Duke brothers.

So I freely admit - I was already checking the forum less often in recent years just because I was getting older and less inclined to eat out, and then stopped doing both entirely during Covid. I'm now starting to venture out again, and I greatly prefer the forum to more 'modern' social media sites.

Forums might seem antiquated, but they have the advantage of having much, much more information bandwidth compared to something like Reddit. You can not only find information going back years, but have a much more in depth discussion. As a general rule, I find the quality and value of a particular form of social media to be directly proportionate to its information density - but the popularity of a particular site seems to have an inverse relationship. Low bandwidth = more views, but less (and worse) information.

I hope LTH remains, because it was invaluable to me in seeking out and finding great restaurants all over Chicago, and not just in the Loop.

I have some photos from my last vacation that I can't really put on some of the feeds that I run because they are focused on local food pics. I will share them in a couple places like this. I just have to remind myself to get the photos edited and uploaded and then write up the descriptions. Sometimes I am so out of my rhythm that I just don't get around to uploading them one place I may forget to post them anywhere.

Forum traffic and engagement is down all over the place. Other platforms like blogs are down too. There are bloggers doing the same thing for 20 years for the same audience and their ad revenue could be down up to 95% from just five or six years ago. Ad supported forums went from being revenue generators that could make enough to pay for hosting, to being stuck in a place where ad revenue is nonexistent and hosting service has to be paid for somehow.

ronnie_suburban wrote:If you or anyone else has a credible source of assistance, please let me know. In the meantime, I promise that I will hold membership rates steady through the end of 2024!

=R=
for LTH

How about financial? I’m thinking low overhead fund drive. Venmo or Zelle or Cash App. I bet there are 50 of us who can donate $10, and there may be 10 who will donate $50. Would that get you anywhere with your tech guy?

ronnie_suburban wrote:Personally, I love the way message boards like this one are organized, so that's nothing I see as in need of adjusting. I'm guessing that many who spend time here feel the same.

Beyond all that, I loathe social media. I might not be the best custodian of LTH but I'd never willingly drop our 20 years of collectively-built history squarely into someone else's platform.

If you're looking for a primarily mobile app, I can assure you that LTH will never fit the bill. Sorry.

I'm sad at what LTH forum has become. I have been a member for 19 years. I tried to search to see when I last posted, but that functionality is broken. But the fact is, my usage has drastically dropped off in the last decade as I've pivoted to sites where there's more engagement.

I was reading a post on the r/Chicagofood Reddit today about Podhalanka and wanted to share a link from LTH. But it appears that Google no longer fully indexes the site, and that the search function is largely broken so the only thread that I could find was the GNR thread. (There are other mentions, but you'll only find them by sifting through the GNR thread. This thread, for example, couldn't be found through the site search or Google when I tried.)

Ronnie, I've respected your posts and what you've done for the site over the years, but reading these posts, what I'm hearing is, "I have strong opinions. I like it as is, and I have no desire to change it." Which is sad, because it seems that your user base is (literally) dying off, and it's highly unlikely new users will find this site is it's not being indexed, and if people who come in through the home page see an archive link that's 8 years old. I hope you'll rethink your approach so that LTH has momentum for many decades to come, because this site was, for a couple decades, and impressively relevant, important site to the Chicago (and even national and international) food scene. But refusing to acknowledge how user preferences change (for example, a year ago the stat was that 60% of internet users are browsing on mobile devices, and that will only increase) will kill this site. I respect that as the site owner it's your decision to make, but it makes me sad.

I appreciate the comments. The site is not operating up to spec and it's been years since it has. Neither I nor any of the other Moderators have the technical expertise to address these issues on our own. So, we need outside help and it's been incredibly difficult to source. I've reached out to -- and started working with -- a half-dozen people over the past few years and none have been able to resolve our issues. I'm currently working someone who is highly skilled but volunteering and extremely busy in their professional life. I've offered to pay him, as well as others, to help. I've hired 2 separate people via Upwork who've essentially walked away. So, the intention to remedy is there. The financial resources are there. Even my former partner, who redesigned the site some years ago, suddenly walked away one day when his personal life imploded. It's been a rough road.

But please don't conflate non-functioning features with anyone's desire to not make changes. That simply is not the case. Case in point, the search feature. We did not walk away from having the site indexed. We were getting bombarded by AI bots scraping the site for information (and constantly delaying simple page-loads) and as such, had to flip some switches to eliminate that. When we did, we lost some indexing. It is slowly rebuilding. In early July, our volunteer offered help for this matter on this thread and looking at the thread, no one responded. We'd love some input to help resolve the matter.

As for the future, until we get our technical issues resolved, there's not much point in talking about what might come next. As I've posted over and over again, if there are any members of our community who can help -- or know someone who can -- please let me know. It's been years -- and I apologize again for my part in that -- but I'm not a technical person. I haven't been successful in my efforts to bring the site back into spec but it hasn't been for lack of desire or effort or resources.

All this said, I'm well into my 60's at this point and I don't foresee ever making LTH my top priority. That just isn't in the cards -- just being real here. The reason I've never charged anyone, added ads or monetized the site in any way is to make it clear that I'm happy to do what I can but I don't want anyone to feel like they've paid -- in any way -- for something that hasn't been delivered. I wish I could do better. I wish I'd done better but I've turned over just about every stone I could in my efforts to repair improve the site. And I'll continue to do so. I'd love to see our issues resolved. Nothing would make me happier.

My apologies,

=R=
for LTH

I've found out that searching works much better if you use the old site instead of Google.

3 thoughts in response to chgoeditor's comments:

1. I don't have much trouble browsing the site on my phone, reading new posts, even some searching. I rarely write posts on my phone not because it's difficult to do using the mobile interface, but because it's too much of a hassle to type and edit that quantity of text. I find the same for reddit - to write more than a phrase or sentence it's easier to have a full keyboard. Pictures from mobile are roughly the same hassle as they are from desktop, perhaps slightly easier.

One wish, though, for the mobile version is to have an "Active Topics" button on all chat pages as there is on the desktop site. That might just be a relatively easy change...maybe.

2. Not to be argumentative, but more in terms of showing how flaky the search is, I just used the search feature for Podhalanka and got this result:
Not exactly searcher-friendly, but it is the exact thread that they didn't see. I wonder if some of these problems have more to do with Google than this site.

3.

chgoeditor wrote:because it seems that your user base is (literally) dying off, and it's highly unlikely new users will find this site...

Yup, if new members are wanted, a little promotion wouldn't hurt. I found lthforum during the pandemic from a reddit mention on r/chicagosuburbs or r/chicago (I don't consume much r/chicagofood.) But is a membership like that of r/chicagofood what fellow members here want? Up to y'all...

NFriday wrote:I've found out that searching works much better if you use the old site instead of Google.

100% correct. You can search topic title only or body or by screen name, which google does not.

Regards,
Cathy2

1 - Have you looked into upgrading / changing the bulletin board software to a newer or robust version which would resolve these issues? The Search/indexing functions would be resolved with a newer BB software.

2 - Also instead of Upwork, maybe look at a cheap experienced developer from fiverr which has experience in bulletin board software installation and maintenance? It would be probably less than $400 to get someone to either install or help troubleshoot your issues.

Here is a general search query on fiverr for a developer on bulletin board software:
https://www.fiverr.com/search/gigs?quer ... in%20board

Given the fact that all work is done by volunteers, I wonder about offering suggestions for additional money and time commitment. How robust does the site need to be? Especially if no one is offering to do the work.

I'm immensely grateful for all that has been poured into this site and all that is available already.

polster wrote:1 - Have you looked into upgrading / changing the bulletin board software to a newer or robust version which would resolve these issues? The Search/indexing functions would be resolved with a newer BB software.

2 - Also instead of Upwork, maybe look at a cheap experienced developer from fiverr which has experience in bulletin board software installation and maintenance? It would be probably less than $400 to get someone to either install or help troubleshoot your issues.

Here is a general search query on fiverr for a developer on bulletin board software:
https://www.fiverr.com/search/gigs?quer ... in%20board

We're already knee-deep into this and hopefully, working toward a resolution. Moving to another platform will almost certainly obliterate our history, so it's not an option I would initially consider (or ever, really).

Updating our version of phpBB is the goal but the database is damaged (this actually dates back to some switches that were flipped incorrectly at the very outset and has rippled ever since), so updating to a more recent version cannot happen without finding a way to safely transfer all existing data to it. This is exactly what Joe's been working on. And, other very kind LTH'ers with experience in this area have also offered their assistance. Until Joe tells me he cannot find a way, I don't plan on making a change but if he cannot accomplish it, I will reach back out to the others who contacted me and offered help. And I appreciate the lead on fiverr. It's already on my radar but as I said above, not ready for that yet.

The good news is that once migrated to a new version, most of the functionality issues should be resolved as a result of it. The bad news is that it's taking a tremendously long time.

Cynthia wrote:Given the fact that all work is done by volunteers, I wonder about offering suggestions for additional money and time commitment. How robust does the site need to be? Especially if no one is offering to do the work.

I'm immensely grateful for all that has been poured into this site and all that is available already.

Thanks, Cynthia. The generous offers of financial help are very kind but as you suggest, there'd be zero point in making them, and I'd never take anyone's money, anyway. What the site needs is experienced help repairing it. I'm confident that we already have that. Yes, I wish it were going faster but real life intervenes. No amount of money will change the trajectory of the timeline. That's just not where we're bottlenecking.

=R=

For what it is worth, the site:lthforum.com search has continued to work, but it seems there was a change at some point in the last 6 months or so. Now the first result (which is generally what you want) doesn't bring in the thread title any longer (which was helpful for confirming it was something worth clicking on). I've generally clicked anyway and found it was what I was looking for. Maybe this is related to the indexing/crawling issue mentioned upthread.

NFriday wrote:I've found out that searching works much better if you use the old site instead of Google.

There have been several references to this. I don't understand what you mean by 'using the old site' .

lougord99 wrote:

NFriday wrote:I've found out that searching works much better if you use the old site instead of Google.

There have been several references to this. I don't understand what you mean by 'using the old site' .

Pretty sure she means this . . .


This is the window that comes up when you hit the Search icon. From here, entering info directly into the 'Search the forums.' box generates a fairly inefficient google search (it's gotten worse lately but it's always been poor). However, if you click on what I have circled above, it opens a more detailed and customizable native search that usually returns better results. It really should be labeled 'Use The Native Site Search' but once you know, you know.

The catch is that when using a mobile device, there's no way to use the Native search, so you're stuck with google. The Native search is only available via desktop.

=R=

ronnie_suburban wrote:I appreciate the comments. The site is not operating up to spec and it's been years since it has. Neither I nor any of the other Moderators have the technical expertise to address these issues on our own. So, we need outside help and it's been incredibly difficult to source. I've reached out to -- and started working with -- a half-dozen people over the past few years and none have been able to resolve our issues. I'm currently working someone who is highly skilled but volunteering and extremely busy in their professional life. I've offered to pay him, as well as others, to help. I've hired 2 separate people via Upwork who've essentially walked away. So, the intention to remedy is there. The financial resources are there. Even my former partner, who redesigned the site some years ago, suddenly walked away one day when his personal life imploded. It's been a rough road.

But please don't conflate non-functioning features with anyone's desire to not make changes. That simply is not the case. Case in point, the search feature. We did not walk away from having the site indexed. We were getting bombarded by AI bots scraping the site for information (and constantly delaying simple page-loads) and as such, had to flip some switches to eliminate that. When we did, we lost some indexing. It is slowly rebuilding. In early July, our volunteer offered help for this matter on this thread and looking at the thread, no one responded. We'd love some input to help resolve the matter.

As for the future, until we get our technical issues resolved, there's not much point in talking about what might come next. As I've posted over and over again, if there are any members of our community who can help -- or know someone who can -- please let me know. It's been years -- and I apologize again for my part in that -- but I'm not a technical person. I haven't been successful in my efforts to bring the site back into spec but it hasn't been for lack of desire or effort or resources.

All this said, I'm well into my 60's at this point and I don't foresee ever making LTH my top priority. That just isn't in the cards -- just being real here. The reason I've never charged anyone, added ads or monetized the site in any way is to make it clear that I'm happy to do what I can but I don't want anyone to feel like they've paid -- in any way -- for something that hasn't been delivered. I wish I could do better. I wish I'd done better but I've turned over just about every stone I could in my efforts to repair improve the site. And I'll continue to do so. I'd love to see our issues resolved. Nothing would make me happier.

My apologies,

=R=
for LTH

Ronnie,

Thanks for responding with grace and empathy, in a non-argumentative fashion. I fully admit that I was expecting pushback, and I appreciate your understanding and explanation of what efforts are ongoing. I really truly hope that you can get there. (I have zero technological skills in this arena, so my thanks are all that I can offer.)

To your last point about selling ads, etc., there's a saying that if you're not the customer, you're the product. In other words, if you're not paying for a service that has value, then there probably are customers (aka advertisers) who are paying for the privilege of getting in front of those users (me and everyone else). You're in an unusual position where you're effectively running a charitable endeavor, because your users aren't the product, but they're also not paying customers. Yet those of us who have used bulletin boards for the last couple decades have high expectations because we're accustomed to BB operators who are generating revenue from their product and want to keep their users happy because that translates to happy advertisers. Once you get things sorted out, I'd encourage you to consider advertising -- you deserve to be compensated for your investment.

tjr wrote:2. Not to be argumentative, but more in terms of showing how flaky the search is, I just used the search feature for Podhalanka and got this result:Image
Not exactly searcher-friendly, but it is the exact thread that they didn't see. I wonder if some of these problems have more to do with Google than this site.

I'm not sure if "they" is me, but that's the exact thread I did see. What I didn't see -- and what I knew existed -- was the original Podhalanka thread that was linked to in the GNR thread.

chgoeditor wrote:I'm not sure if "they" is me, but that's the exact thread I did see. What I didn't see -- and what I knew existed -- was the original Podhalanka thread that was linked to in the GNR thread.

Oops, sorry. I misread the original paragraph.

ronnie_suburban wrote:

lougord99 wrote:

NFriday wrote:I've found out that searching works much better if you use the old site instead of Google.

There have been several references to this. I don't understand what you mean by 'using the old site' .

Pretty sure she means this . . .


This is the window that comes up when you hit the Search icon. From here, entering info directly into the 'Search the forums.' box generates a fairly inefficient google search (it's gotten worse lately but it's always been poor). However, if you click on what I have circled above, it opens a more detailed and customizable native search that usually returns better results. It really should be labeled 'Use The Native Site Search' but once you know, you know.

The catch is that when using a mobile device, there's no way to use the Native search, so you're stuck with google. The Native search is only available via desktop.

=R=

The Native search is available on mobile if you access it directly via its web address at

https://www.lthforum.com/bb/search.php
—
edc

chgoeditor wrote:Thanks for responding with grace and empathy, in a non-argumentative fashion. I fully admit that I was expecting pushback, and I appreciate your understanding and explanation of what efforts are ongoing. I really truly hope that you can get there. (I have zero technological skills in this arena, so my thanks are all that I can offer.)

To your last point about selling ads, etc., there's a saying that if you're not the customer, you're the product...

In the spirit of grace and empathy and no pushback, please take this for what it is, and it's not an attack on you or on anyone's frustrations.

Who has a forum or related website that's making money? Reddit doesn't (I mean they make money but they don't make a profit). All these forums were started as hobbies or such, and often for ego, but they all run into the same issues. They become too big, too complicated, too out of date. No subscription model or advertising revenue is going to fix that.

I feel for Ronnie.

It might be worth noting that "Evil Ronnie" and "Ronnie_Suburban" are two different people (and Evil Ronnie is not, in fact, evil!).

Ronnie_Suburban deserves great credit for not attempting to monetize the board. That happened with several discussion boards of which I was a part. I honor him for that. And I do wonder how long - given that LTH is not, apparently, his top priority any longer, he will wish to cope with this tsouris (to be Yiddish). I leave that decision to him. But I thank him for keeping the board alive as a community.