LTH Home

Is it time - Beef tasting III? [Planning]

Is it time - Beef tasting III? [Planning]
  • Forum HomePost Reply BackTop
     Page 1 of 2
  • Is it time - Beef tasting III? [Planning]

    Post #1 - October 6th, 2004, 4:39 pm
    Post #1 - October 6th, 2004, 4:39 pm Post #1 - October 6th, 2004, 4:39 pm
    What do you think George, Steve, Rob, et al, has the time come for the next Italian Beef tasting?

    Something tastefully after Rob's Athon, of course. How about 11/20? Is this the trip south, or the trip north?

    For those without the history, this will the third of five Italian Beef tasting tours. We have done downtown and nearby, and west/west suburban. We still have south and north trips to do. Then we plan to have a victory tour that just samples the best of the best.

    The goal is not strictly to annoint a Best Italian Beef, since we think we know who that would be, but to sample, discover and compare. We will end up with a list of places worth stopping at wherever you find yourself in Chicago.

    BTW, I was at a soccer tournament on Saturday where the main food vendor was Carm's (from Hillside, not Taylor Street). A pretty good sandwich in those circumstances. The Beef was slightly overcooked (expected in the circumstances), just like at the store (not expected), but with good flavor and roll. Strangely, they were selling jars of giardinera, but not serving it. Go figure.

    Anyway, George R, let me know what you want to do. And other suggestions are welcome!
    d
    Feeling (south) loopy
  • Post #2 - October 8th, 2004, 2:02 pm
    Post #2 - October 8th, 2004, 2:02 pm Post #2 - October 8th, 2004, 2:02 pm
    I'll be glad to help plan Beef III, though I may not be able to make it on 11/20.

    I've been checking my Italian Beef database (created after Dickson suggested that I had such a beast) and we may need three more Beefathon's: south, southwest and north in order to cover suggested places.

    Here are names of possibilities that I've culled from posts on LTH and other sites. I'm not specifically recommending or disrecommending any. Comments from the group will help to decide. For a few I've put in short summaries from posters; please correct if I've made any errors.

    In some cases I had difficulty coming up with directory listings. More info is appreciated.

    North side:

    Max's (5754 N. Western Ave)
    Quick Bite (5155 N. Western Ave)
    Torre's (2804 N. Western Ave)
    Roma's (4237 N. Cicero Ave)
    Dino's & Nick's (2035 N. Pulaski. Recommended by Rob)
    Suzie's (Montrose/Elston)

    South:

    Freddie's (31st & Union)
    Kentone's Drive In (18th & Canalport)
    Ricobene's (252 W. 26th) Also other locations
    Uncle Johnny's Grocery (522 W. 32nd. Strongly recommended by an L.A. Chowhound)
    Tony's (7007 S. Pulaski. ReneG suggestion)
    Pete's (7843 S. Stony Island. Very salty per ReneG)
    Pops Italian Beef (10337 S. Kedzie. Very uneven reviews on Centerstage Chicago)

    Southwest:

    Nickys Hot Dogs (6142 S. Archer)
    Parisi's (63rd between Austin & Naragansett. Can't find a directory listing on this one)
    Novi's (Ogden at Oak Park Avenue)
    Teddy's (Main Street, Downer's Grove)

    Which are worthy? And which area should we hit next? Comments please.
    Where there’s smoke, there may be salmon.
  • Post #3 - October 8th, 2004, 2:18 pm
    Post #3 - October 8th, 2004, 2:18 pm Post #3 - October 8th, 2004, 2:18 pm
    George R wrote:North side:

    Max's (5754 N. Western Ave)
    Quick Bite (5155 N. Western Ave)
    Torre's (2804 N. Western Ave)
    Roma's (4237 N. Cicero Ave)
    Dino's & Nick's (2035 N. Pulaski. Recommended by Rob)
    Suzie's (Montrose/Elston)

    ....

    Which are worthy? And which area should we hit next? Comments please.


    If you choose to hit the North Side, you must include Max's. In spite of some other mediocre reviews I've read, I am a fan of Max's. I believe that a Max's beef, purchased during peak times, can hold its own with the best. Also, Max's longevity almost demands consideration in my mind.

    Also, I currently live close to Torre's. It's pretty good, but a tad inconsistent. Again, peak timing seems to be a factor here for me.

    Best,
    EC
  • Post #4 - October 9th, 2004, 4:03 pm
    Post #4 - October 9th, 2004, 4:03 pm Post #4 - October 9th, 2004, 4:03 pm
    On the north side list, I'm not sure if I would include Suzie's if the list needs to be shortened. Suzy's is one of my favorite places, but not for beef. They shine on burgers, shakes and such, and have an extensive menu of other items (and 30 - 40 flavors of shakes). The beefs are not bad, just not a contender for the "best of beefs". as for the Other Categories, I've never been to any of them and I am looking forward to checking them out.

    P.S. I agree about Tore's being inconsistant. When they are on, the beef is quite good.
    Steve Z.

    “Only the pure in heart can make a good soup.”
    ― Ludwig van Beethoven
  • Post #5 - October 9th, 2004, 4:25 pm
    Post #5 - October 9th, 2004, 4:25 pm Post #5 - October 9th, 2004, 4:25 pm
    I keep noticing a place called Papageorge's on California, the signs in the window say they make their own beef, has anyone tried it (besides, that is, the author of this post on some Chicago Food 101-type board?)
    Watch Sky Full of Bacon, the Chicago food HD podcast!
    New episode: Soil, Corn, Cows and Cheese
    Watch the Reader's James Beard Award-winning Key Ingredient here.
  • Post #6 - October 9th, 2004, 6:28 pm
    Post #6 - October 9th, 2004, 6:28 pm Post #6 - October 9th, 2004, 6:28 pm
    Mike G wrote:I keep noticing a place called Papageorge's on California, the signs in the window say they make their own beef, has anyone tried it (besides, that is, the author of this post on some Chicago Food 101-type board?)

    Mike,

    I'm sure I read Seth's post first time around, but somehow his statement twice fried french fries on a par with the Hop Leaf did not seem to register. Got my attention this time though, that's for sure. :)

    I see a visit to Papa George's in my very near future.

    Enjoy,
    Gary

    Papa George's
    3324 N California Ave
    Chicago, IL 60618
    773-478-8894
  • Post #7 - October 10th, 2004, 4:45 pm
    Post #7 - October 10th, 2004, 4:45 pm Post #7 - October 10th, 2004, 4:45 pm
    I've been to Papa George's once or twice, and thought the burger was quite serviceable for it's sort. I'd go back for the burger. Don't recall the fries, though Kate just now said she has a vague recollection of them being very good. Haven't tried the Italian beef--I think the "make their own beef" thing refers to the hamburger patties rather than the Italian beef, though I could be wrong.
  • Post #8 - October 12th, 2004, 5:15 pm
    Post #8 - October 12th, 2004, 5:15 pm Post #8 - October 12th, 2004, 5:15 pm
    Since the discussion has been about north side places, it seems that Beef III should be the north side. Steve Z said to take Suzie's off the list, and I will defer to his judgment on this.

    Does anyone have more ideas for places to add or remove from the list? The city is filled with stands offering Italian Beef and it takes a lot of research (and Pepto) to find the better ones. I have a route roughed out, but it would depend on which places make the cut.

    Today business took me into Chicago, and out of the corner of my eye I saw Tina's Best Beef on Montrose at Western. Does anyone know anything about this place?

    I didn't stop at Tina's because I was on a mission to have lunch at Papa George's. I posted my experience on the thread that Gary started about Papa George's.

    http://www.lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?t=1638

    Quick summary is that Papa George's is a place I'd like to try again, and I think it's worth adding to Beef III. The sandwich has potential. Nothing blew me away, but all the components were good. And the fries definitely are worthwhile.

    When to have Beef III? Dickson originally proposed 11/20, then kindly suggested changing to January when he learned that all my Saturdays are tied up thru the end of the year. However, I don't think plans should be changed because of one person. I've been to every north side place on the list, except Dino's and Nick's. I can get to them on my own over time.

    So I'm suggesting that you go ahead with the original 11/20 date for the north side Beefathon. We can do the south and southwest sides after January 1st. Those are new to me and are the ones I want to sample in a future Beefathon.
    Where there’s smoke, there may be salmon.
  • Post #9 - October 12th, 2004, 8:59 pm
    Post #9 - October 12th, 2004, 8:59 pm Post #9 - October 12th, 2004, 8:59 pm
    JSM wrote about Tina's, either here or on Chowhound. Didn't sound like it was worth adding.

    As for Suzie's, I've never had their beef so don't know about those grounds, but if atmosphere counts for anything, I might not be so quick to strike it. But it really doesn't matter much to me. Don't believe I can make the 20th either, though I haven't been able to make a Beef-a-thon yet.

    Cheers,

    Aaron
  • Post #10 - October 12th, 2004, 11:44 pm
    Post #10 - October 12th, 2004, 11:44 pm Post #10 - October 12th, 2004, 11:44 pm
    Aaron Deacon wrote:JSM wrote about Tina's, either here or on Chowhound. Didn't sound like it was worth adding.

    As for Suzie's, I've never had their beef so don't know about those grounds, but if atmosphere counts for anything, I might not be so quick to strike it. But it really doesn't matter much to me. Don't believe I can make the 20th either, though I haven't been able to make a Beef-a-thon yet.

    Cheers,

    Aaron


    Like I said, Suzi's is a 24/7 gem...just not for the beef. I'd hate to sour a first-timer's opinion if the first thing they have there is a beef rather than a burger. Like any other restaurant, once you try the "go to" dish, then experimenting with other items on the menu is in order...but their menu is very deep for such a small place and beef is well buried beneath some other more worthy offerings IMHO.
    Steve Z.

    “Only the pure in heart can make a good soup.”
    ― Ludwig van Beethoven
  • Post #11 - October 19th, 2004, 1:55 pm
    Post #11 - October 19th, 2004, 1:55 pm Post #11 - October 19th, 2004, 1:55 pm
    It's been several days since comments / suggestions have been posted re Beef III, so I'm going to propose a schedule.

    Let's do it on Saturday November 20th as originally suggested by Dickson. Several people already said that day worked for them. The route starts with Tore's, goes north and then west, finally back south finishing up at Dino & Nick's. The finish is convenient for anyone wishing to continue on to Johnnie's. Of course it's also not far from Humbolt Park to the east, Las Islas Marias to the west, and other sources of chowish pleasure.

    Start at 10:45 am at Tore's. Tore's opens at 10:30 am and I figured on giving them a few minutes to set up before a wave of beefaholics descends. I didn't bother checking hours at the last three places.

    Tore's is at the triple intersection of Western, Diversey and Elston so it's readily accessible by public transportation. Anyone needing a ride can meet up with drivers at Tore's.

    A few notes: EC commented that peak time is best for both Tore's and Max's. Hitting both at peak time would require doubling back, so I opted for Max's at peak.

    The parking lot at Tore's is very small, and at busy times it's almost impossible to turn north onto Western Avenue from it. Instead take Elston NW to California and then it's a few blocks further north to Papa George's.

    After that it should be easy except for parking at Quick Bite whose lot is even smaller than Tore's.

    I doubt that I'll be able to make it, but look forward to seeing your reports. Have a great time.

    Tore's Italian Beef (opens 10:30 am)
    2804 N. Western Avenue
    773-227-7595

    Papa George's (opens 8 am)
    3324 N. California
    773-478-8894

    Quick Bite (opens 11 am)
    5155 N. Western
    773-989-4918

    Max's Italian Beef
    5754 Western Avenue
    773-989-8200

    Roma's Italian Beef and Sausage
    4237 N. Cicero
    773-725-5715

    Dino and Nick's Pizza and Beef
    2035 N. Pulaski
    773-278-3370
    Where there’s smoke, there may be salmon.
  • Post #12 - October 19th, 2004, 2:15 pm
    Post #12 - October 19th, 2004, 2:15 pm Post #12 - October 19th, 2004, 2:15 pm
    George R wrote:EC commented that peak time is best for both Tore's and Max's. Hitting both at peak time would require doubling back, so I opted for Max's at peak.


    I have a feeling that going early is just as good as going at the peak. Personally, I think the quality degredation happens when everything has had too long to sit around and stew.

    I hope I can make it to this event. Can I ask how this works? Does everyone buy a beef at every location or do you buy a few and split 'em up?

    Best,
    EC
  • Post #13 - October 19th, 2004, 2:31 pm
    Post #13 - October 19th, 2004, 2:31 pm Post #13 - October 19th, 2004, 2:31 pm
    I hope I can make it to this event. Can I ask how this works? Does everyone buy a beef at every location or do you buy a few and split 'em up?


    During previous outings we have purchased 2 or 3 sammy's at each location 1 dry and 1 dipped. Hot and sweet on the side and, if allowed a side of gravy. oh, and a side of fries.

    Flip
    "Beer is proof God loves us, and wants us to be Happy"
    -Ben Franklin-
  • Post #14 - October 20th, 2004, 10:37 am
    Post #14 - October 20th, 2004, 10:37 am Post #14 - October 20th, 2004, 10:37 am
    eatchicago wrote:
    George R wrote:EC commented that peak time is best for both Tore's and Max's. Hitting both at peak time would require doubling back, so I opted for Max's at peak.


    I have a feeling that going early is just as good as going at the peak. Personally, I think the quality degredation happens when everything has had too long to sit around and stew.

    I hope I can make it to this event. Can I ask how this works? Does everyone buy a beef at every location or do you buy a few and split 'em up?

    Best,
    EC


    Part lof the evaluation process checking out the technique used to heat/hold the beef. A good place knows how to gauge its business and only has enough "in the juice" to fill its beefy needs for a limited time.
    Steve Z.

    “Only the pure in heart can make a good soup.”
    ― Ludwig van Beethoven
  • Post #15 - October 20th, 2004, 12:28 pm
    Post #15 - October 20th, 2004, 12:28 pm Post #15 - October 20th, 2004, 12:28 pm
    Flip wrote:During previous outings we have purchased 2 or 3 sammy's at each location 1 dry and 1 dipped. Hot and sweet on the side and, if allowed a side of gravy. oh, and a side of fries.

    Flip


    Flip, as I recall, that's how we started the last Beef-a-Thon...until we realized no one wanted the dry one, at which point, we got 'em all dipped. That's the way I'd suggest we go; a dry beef seems unnatural.

    Hammond
  • Post #16 - October 20th, 2004, 12:54 pm
    Post #16 - October 20th, 2004, 12:54 pm Post #16 - October 20th, 2004, 12:54 pm
    stevez wrote:[Part lof the evaluation process checking out the technique used to heat/hold the beef. A good place knows how to gauge its business and only has enough "in the juice" to fill its beefy needs for a limited time.


    Steve, excellent point!

    I think so much of the "art" when it comes to things like hot dogs, bbq, gyros, Italian beef, etc., is how it is when you order it. Not how it can be or how it sometimes is, but how it actually is.

    As an aside, I ment this to be a full post, but I am behind in posts anyways, I tried the new Al's Italian Beef in River Grove. I am a big fan of Al's Italian beef, but this will not convince anyone of its greatness. The beef and the giardinara were very flat. The Condiment Queen actually had to salt her sammy to get some flavor out of it. Also, not all the meat was well sliced, making it a bit like Italian pot roast. Very, very, very good fries though. How exactly they bring out so much sweetness in their fries (an Al's trademark) I am not positive.

    Rob
  • Post #17 - October 24th, 2004, 7:34 pm
    Post #17 - October 24th, 2004, 7:34 pm Post #17 - October 24th, 2004, 7:34 pm
    George - thanks for the schedule. I will dip a beef for you. Looks like we have the following attendees:

    dickson
    SteveZ
    Flip
    VI
    hattyn +2 (for some)
    Evan Druce
    EC (probably?)

    We meet 11/20 at 1045am at Tore's.

    We share a few sandwiches so everyone gets between a quarter and a sixth (more or less). There is a score sheet to rate the components (beef, bread, gravy, peppers, giardinera and fries) as well as the overall sandwich. I will drop the dry sandwich, and we will just take them as they make them (neither dipped or dry), so they can be the experts.

    The goal, at the risk of repeating myself, is to eventually come up with a list of vey good places around town that we eventually can visit in one day as a massive last Beef tasteoff orgy. So far these would definitely include Al's and Johnny's. I think it includes Chickies (my favorite anyway) and then some border line options including the Patio, Mr. Beef and...

    On past outings I have brought my van so we can share a ride to the degree it makes sense.

    Please let me know if you plan to attend.
    Last edited by dicksond on October 26th, 2004, 7:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
    d
    Feeling (south) loopy
  • Post #18 - November 29th, 2004, 1:18 pm
    Post #18 - November 29th, 2004, 1:18 pm Post #18 - November 29th, 2004, 1:18 pm
    Papa George's has closed and should be removed from the schedule.

    The site of Papa George's will be the new location of Hot Doug's scheduled to open in January.
    Where there’s smoke, there may be salmon.
  • Post #19 - November 30th, 2004, 3:21 pm
    Post #19 - November 30th, 2004, 3:21 pm Post #19 - November 30th, 2004, 3:21 pm
    New to the list (courtesy of Ed Fisher lurking the Chowhound list) and would really like to participate in this--though I am auto-less. Would it be possible for a newbie to join and ride along with someone?
    --John
    "There's plenty of room for all of god's creatures right next to the mashed potatos"
  • Post #20 - December 5th, 2004, 12:22 pm
    Post #20 - December 5th, 2004, 12:22 pm Post #20 - December 5th, 2004, 12:22 pm
    Beefathon three - the Great North will convene at Tore's, 2804 N Western, at 1045 am, next Saturday, December 11. I will pick up and drive Flip. Anyone else who can get to that point is also welcome to ride with us (I will bring a van if needed), but please let me know.

    For other details, we will stick with George's original itinerary, which can be found here http://lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?p=13062#13062
    (I need to learn how to change labels on links, still). Except Papageorges is out, so we will consider replacements. George, Rene G, anyone else, any ideas?

    My cell is 630-399-9172. I look forward to seeing you all, and enjoying the beef.

    Attendees appear to be:
    dickson
    flip
    Hammy
    hatty plus 2
    stevez
    sybarite if he can get a ride (where are you coming from?)
    eat chicago (looking forward to meeting you)
    evan d???

    As to details - in general we take turns buying - couple of sandwiches, hot and sweet peppers and gravy on the side (important so we can taste the components).

    Score sheets are provided, and then collected at the end. Scores are tabulated and comments compiled. Comments are at least as important as scores, IMHO. Winners are named (see previous reports). This is the third outing, and Johnnies remains the standard against which all are measured. We will have one or two more tastings, and then a champions taste off, where we go back to the best ones (4 or 5 I imagine) and compare the best in a single day to determine the best of the best.

    Of course, there is no way we can ever really compare Al's and Johnnies, what with the fundamental difference between the sammies. And, as noted earlier in this thread by Stevez, the resident beef preparation sage, the most important thing is how the beef is prepared and held. Sort of like the barbecue tasting, it seems.

    But mostly it is about enjoying the beef.
    d
    Feeling (south) loopy
  • Post #21 - December 5th, 2004, 5:56 pm
    Post #21 - December 5th, 2004, 5:56 pm Post #21 - December 5th, 2004, 5:56 pm
    What about moving Dino and Nick's Pizza and Beef into the Papageorges' slot? (Are they open early enough?) It would keep us from doubling back later.
    Steve Z.

    “Only the pure in heart can make a good soup.”
    ― Ludwig van Beethoven
  • Post #22 - December 7th, 2004, 12:16 am
    Post #22 - December 7th, 2004, 12:16 am Post #22 - December 7th, 2004, 12:16 am
    Rene G, anyone else, any ideas?

    I can't think of too many 'must tries' in the area. Max's and Roma's are my favorites from the list (I must have been to Dino & Nick's but can't remember the beef). I'll be curious how they all stack up.

    There were some classic NW side places that are no longer around. Margie's (not Marge's; Cicero Av north of Division) was one of the oldest (and best) Italian beef stands in the city. I mentioned it a few times on Chowhound in the hope that someone would visit but it's too late now. Another good one was Aldo's (Grand Av around Central) but that closed not long ago too. Other good places from longer ago were Connie's (North Av between Austin & Narraganset) and Q's (North Av between Central & Austin).

    I'll try to get my South Side list together. There are a few real good ones still to be visited on a Beefathon as well as quite a number to avoid at all costs.
  • Post #23 - December 7th, 2004, 11:26 am
    Post #23 - December 7th, 2004, 11:26 am Post #23 - December 7th, 2004, 11:26 am
    Thanks Rene for confirming that there are no "must tries" or "must avoids" we missed.

    Per Steve's suggestion, here is a revised schedule for discussion.

    The route starts with Tore's, and then heads mostly north. The benefit is that it is mostly linear. The downside is that one ends up way north, which is less convenient for everyone who does not live north, and also puts us far away from any other beef places if we wish to end with something else for comparison, say Johnnies, Chickies, Al's, etc.

    Start at 10:45 am at Tore's. Tore's opens at 10:30 am and give them a few minutes to set up before a wave of beefaholics descends. We could also start at Dino and Nick's. which opens at 10, if we want to start a bit earlier, say 10:15.

    Tore's is at the triple intersection of Western, Diversey and Elston so it's readily accessible by public transportation. Anyone needing a ride can meet up with drivers at Tore's.

    This means we hit Max's late in the day, probably not much earlier than 2pm. EC thought that was a problem, earlier in the discussion. If so, we would need to revise this accordingly.


    Tore's Italian Beef (opens 10:30 am)
    2804 N. Western Avenue
    773-227-7595

    Dino and Nick's Pizza and Beef (opens 10am)
    2035 N. Pulaski
    773-278-3370

    Roma's Italian Beef and Sausage (opens 10am)
    4237 N. Cicero
    773-725-5715

    Quick Bite (opens 11 am)
    5155 N. Western
    773-989-4918

    Max's Italian Beef
    5754 Western Avenue
    773-989-8200
    d
    Feeling (south) loopy
  • Post #24 - December 8th, 2004, 5:38 pm
    Post #24 - December 8th, 2004, 5:38 pm Post #24 - December 8th, 2004, 5:38 pm
    Vox populi. The people has spoke.

    I'm cool with revising the route if the group wants. The beef places form a rough rectangle with Tore's at the SE corner, Dino's & Nick's at the SW corner, Roma's the NW corner and Max's + Tasty Bite forming the NE corner.

    We can start at any point and move either clockwise or counter clockwise. Starting at Tore's seemed like a good idea because it's easy to get to for people near the city center who are w/o cars.

    The reason I suggested a counter clockwise route originally was to arrive at Max's near the optimum time.

    Full disclosure: I had an ulterior motive for finishing at Dino's & Nick's because -- if capacity allowed -- I could easily go to Jimmys Red Hots afterward. The place has nostalgia for me because I had my first sport pepper experience there 45+ years ago. On the other hand , finishing up north is OK too as I work in Evanston and live further north.

    Net result is I'm content with whatever the group decides.
    Where there’s smoke, there may be salmon.
  • Post #25 - December 20th, 2004, 3:45 pm
    Post #25 - December 20th, 2004, 3:45 pm Post #25 - December 20th, 2004, 3:45 pm
    If it's Jan. 8 I'm back in.

    Beef ahoy!
  • Post #26 - December 27th, 2004, 11:15 am
    Post #26 - December 27th, 2004, 11:15 am Post #26 - December 27th, 2004, 11:15 am
    I may be able to join you as well. I will check for any updates.
    "You should eat!"
  • Post #27 - December 27th, 2004, 11:26 am
    Post #27 - December 27th, 2004, 11:26 am Post #27 - December 27th, 2004, 11:26 am
    In my opinion the more the merrier. Come one, come all. I'm again looking forward to a beef induced food coma.

    Flip
    "Beer is proof God loves us, and wants us to be Happy"
    -Ben Franklin-
  • Post #28 - January 3rd, 2005, 10:27 pm
    Post #28 - January 3rd, 2005, 10:27 pm Post #28 - January 3rd, 2005, 10:27 pm
    I guess the only question is what the route is. Meet at 1045 am at Tore's, and then proceed in which order? George had some culinary reasons for the route he originally proposed, but then there were some practical reasons to take a different route.

    Shall we do Tore's, and then the northward spiral, or the graceful parabola?

    I am no longer sure what the total count will be, but it sounds as if we will have a pretty good turnout.
    d
    Feeling (south) loopy
  • Post #29 - January 3rd, 2005, 11:18 pm
    Post #29 - January 3rd, 2005, 11:18 pm Post #29 - January 3rd, 2005, 11:18 pm
    Living on the Northwest side, I lean toward finishing up North at Max's, but I'll go with whatever you or George decides. Both of you have done the lion's share of organizing these events, so it's your call.
    Steve Z.

    “Only the pure in heart can make a good soup.”
    ― Ludwig van Beethoven
  • Post #30 - January 3rd, 2005, 11:28 pm
    Post #30 - January 3rd, 2005, 11:28 pm Post #30 - January 3rd, 2005, 11:28 pm
    You know, it might not hurt, for the benefit of those who haven't been carefully following this thread through all the many permutations of plans, that George post a final start time, itinerary, etc.

    Hammond
    “Nobody exists on purpose. Nobody belongs anywhere. Everybody’s gonna die. Come watch TV?”

Contact

About

Team

Advertize

Close

Chat

Articles

Guide

Events

more